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NL5FR 710s sb v UTG limp

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NL5FR 710s sb v UTG limp - Mon Aug 12, 2013, 02:38 PM
(#1)
UrGetinTaxed's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 189
hi

small blind question.!

I usually always raise and isolate limpers but here im OOP and my hand isnt that great, so can u complete SB here or if im gonna play it shall i raise i wanted to see a flop against the 2 fish tbh. seems a kindov marginal question but iv notised i do this a few times in every session. could be a big leak not sure.

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...523_3B0BA2EA23
 
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Mon Aug 12, 2013, 07:55 PM
(#2)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
If he is total fish, then he doesn’t fold to CB, so raise would be bad, if he folds to CB then raising is ok (because your hand is very bad). In general, you want bet fish with made value.

However, he limped UTG, so I would give him a quite good hand without knowing more.

I think u should choose between folding or calling.

Last edited by braveslice; Mon Aug 12, 2013 at 07:57 PM..
 
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Tue Aug 13, 2013, 04:10 AM
(#3)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi UrGetinTaxed

braveslice gave a nice logic about deciding on which line to take. However, I think the decision should be either raise or fold. I would not complete the SB when I am not even closing the action.
Villain started the hand with less than 50bbs so our implied odds go way down and our hand will unlikely win if we flop TP. So I elect to fold.
 
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Tue Aug 13, 2013, 01:03 PM
(#4)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
geoVARTA, I know one should fold, but don't tell me you would not call in this position time to time? What would be the game plan be after raising? No CB after missing? I don't pretend to know better, just trying to learn.

What I'm wondering is that why there is more value in raising and not calling with bad but potential hand against 'weak'. We know that if he raises he has really good hand.

Last edited by braveslice; Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 01:17 PM..
 
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Tue Aug 13, 2013, 02:21 PM
(#5)
UrGetinTaxed's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 189
i kindov agree with what braveslice is saying there, i dont always play the sb this way but somtimes i feel its ok
 
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Tue Aug 13, 2013, 03:16 PM
(#6)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
geoVARTA, I know one should fold, but don't tell me you would not call in this position time to time? What would be the game plan be after raising? No CB after missing? I don't pretend to know better, just trying to learn.

What I'm wondering is that why there is more value in raising and not calling with bad but potential hand against 'weak'. We know that if he raises he has really good hand.
Hi braveslice let me try to reply to your questions by putting out another question for you to answer What's your reason for calling? and what's ur plan when you see a flop?
 
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Tue Aug 13, 2013, 03:33 PM
(#7)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Hi braveslice let me try to reply to your questions by putting out another question for you to answer What's your reason for calling? and what's ur plan when you see a flop?
Finally a statement from geo that I totally agree with...lol
A plan and a reason a must, most will do it out of curiosity

If it was me, I also call. I'm in profit, 2 gap connectors for straight or flush, very low cost to do so. If I flop nothing I fold.
Flop gives me mid pair, that's not strong enough, so I'll check and depending on the size of the bet (if any), I'll fold if more than 50% of pot. I won't be going very far as T7 is not a good hand.
If the villain would of done a normal raise, it was an automatic fold for me

GL
 
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Tue Aug 13, 2013, 04:03 PM
(#8)
nicdabull's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 516
If the villain would of done a normal raise, it was an automatic fold for me

GL


..ownership is 9/10th of the law.


nic
 
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Tue Aug 13, 2013, 04:40 PM
(#9)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
Finally a statement from geo that I totally agree with...lol
A plan and a reason a must, most will do it out of curiosity

If it was me, I also call. I'm in profit, 2 gap connectors for straight or flush, very low cost to do so. If I flop nothing I fold.
Flop gives me mid pair, that's not strong enough, so I'll check and depending on the size of the bet (if any), I'll fold if more than 50% of pot. I won't be going very far as T7 is not a good hand.
If the villain would of done a normal raise, it was an automatic fold for me

GL
Are we condescending again Sandtrap?

I'm not sure what you mean by "I'm in profit". Sure our hand looks pretty but I think the odds for us to flop big is pretty low. Although we are getting 4:1 I think if we simulate this hand over a large sample we might be losing more money than just giving up the SB because we either will be x/folding flop 70% of the time or losing/winning a medium pot 30% of the time. I'll try to put some math for it, but might be a hastle. Will try either ways... Thanks for ur insight Sandtrap.
 
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Tue Aug 13, 2013, 08:33 PM
(#10)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
What I mean by in profit, he started with a $5 stack and he's now at $6.52, therefore $0.05 extra wont hurt. If my stack was below $4.50, then I would fold.
We all wish to flop big, but that's not the point.

1) It's a cheap call to see the flop for a flush, straight, straight flush, a set or even top pair
2) It's not about the numbers as numbers shouldn't be the only factor that should dictate your play.
3) You need to fold if you don't catch or there's a greater than normal bet, therefore max loss is an extra $0.05. A raise can cost you lots more.

Different view than just the numbers view
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/blo...right#comments

condescending again?? not at all
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 12:10 AM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Sometimes maybe strong-looking flops aren't so strong? Kind of like how with sets a A72r flop vs AK is a gazillion times better than a 9xTsJs vs QsKs?

Like maybe a strong flop for 7hTh would have been a board like 8h9xAh (with a 6c turn) versus AK, rather than like a 8hJhTc vs J9 with a limper who wanted to play for stacks on the flop? :/


I've just started playing suited connectors more at 10nl and have found myself in a couple of similar situations, where we wound up playing for stacks and were basically just flipping. And I'm not so crazy about flips because it makes the all-in EV graph go wild, which tilts me pretty bad

Guess I'm still trying to figure out how to play suited connectors, so I thought this was an interesting 'outside the box' scenario to ponder, with an interesting discussion


Time for sleep, but I'm not very sleepy ... hope my comment doesn't sound like I should have gone to bed an hour ago to stop the rambling
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 05:41 AM
(#12)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
What I mean by in profit, he started with a $5 stack and he's now at $6.52, therefore $0.05 extra wont hurt. If my stack was below $4.50, then I would fold.
We all wish to flop big, but that's not the point.

1) It's a cheap call to see the flop for a flush, straight, straight flush, a set or even top pair
2) It's not about the numbers as numbers shouldn't be the only factor that should dictate your play.
3) You need to fold if you don't catch or there's a greater than normal bet, therefore max loss is an extra $0.05. A raise can cost you lots more.

Different view than just the numbers view
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/blo...right#comments

condescending again?? not at all
1) Here are some interesting facts:
. We hit TP (7 or T) 14% of the time
. We hit an OESD roughly 1% of the time
. We have a GS roughly 2% of the time
. We have a FD 5% of the time
(Assuming I did the math right)

2) Yes numbers should not be the ONLY factor, BUT they should be the primary factor as that's what dictates what is the most EV action to take

3) You miss a flop 70% of the time; When we raise we have initiative and can capitalize on that fact by putting a cbet which will "theoretically" speaking get 70% folds
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 05:52 AM
(#13)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Right so I tried doing a tree diagram to find out if completing the SB is a +EV play, but the branches keep going and going and tbh I think we might be giving this more time than it deserves

The point is, from experience and reading, I find that to playing SCs or One gappers profitably you would need initiative or position or even better both! That is because we seldom hit a flop strongly ~ 10% and the rest we have some TP that is super vulnerable. Which means we need to be taking semi-bluffing or bluffing lines more often to win the pot without showdown and to be able to take such lines we would need to have initiative and position to control the pot. And since villain has <100bbs then we cannot capitalize on implied odds.

I would consider isolating if villain had 100bbs (for implied odds) and I was OTB, but my preference would be to just fold the SB because it might get sticky and I will be in a tough spot OOP without initiative when we might even be drawing to the dummy end on 50% of the occasions. There are just soooo many more profitable spots to be in that it really doesn't matter to forfeit 0.5bbs with such a marginal hand.

Last edited by geoVARTA; Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 05:56 AM..
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 05:53 AM
(#14)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Interesting thread and discussion guys
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 01:28 PM
(#15)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Little story

In a live cash play, a very well known respected PSO member called my normal raise (3x) with Q5s. He had a bigger stack, knew me, wasn't using any HUD....LOL, no calculator, no poker stove. It was a cheap call and I would of done the same.

Result, I had JJ and flopped a J, but he flopped a flush...lol and I lost.

Just saying that it's not all about numbers, it's about the cost, luck, stack size and how much you've drank.....LOL

When you're hoping for luck, it needs to be at a very low cost and it shouldn't hurt your stack or profit, and you need to be in profit and be willing to fold at any time. In this case, (T7s), it's not about the numbers, since numbers are not in your favor, it's about the cost and the cost is right.

It's like stealing the BB when on the button with nothing, to me that's more expensive than this example

That's how I would of played it

Last edited by Sandtrap777; Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 01:31 PM..
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 01:30 PM
(#16)
UrGetinTaxed's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 189
ok thanks guys for ur replies

I been reading them but just staying silent for moment
 
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Thu Aug 15, 2013, 09:21 PM
(#17)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Can we take the alternative route, instead of calculations, and go by the rule of thumb that (I.) it is better to play pot against the two fish than one? And more importantly, (II.) the goal against fish is to see as many flops as possible? As suggested in the opening post by UrGetinTaxed, his reason was to “i wanted to see a flop against the 2 fish”

Btw, whatever we do, I don’t think the difference is that huge against fish.

It would be really nice experiment (hint, youtube) to play NL2 zoom and limp every hand in by someone with good skill and see if he can make profit.


----
geoVarta, I was talking about CB maybe too much , but I was ‘thinking’ that there is no point of raising if CB is not profitable.

If I have understood correctly by raising A) we build the pot with value hands B) we gain control to later streets against villain C) we make him fold D) to isolate F) to make sure we see the flop

A)is obviously not the reason here. B) against fish this is ok, but we don’t really gain that much. He thinks more about what he has, not what we did. C) rarely UTG limper folds. Also making him fold actually might be a mistake, because we want to see the flop with him. D) is not needed F) is not needed. In case of raise we are happy to fold.

After some more thought it might be profitable to CB. It is just that against two fish I’m hoping to hit big and get all the money out of them both.


Why calling is good imo:
a) we probably see the flop with 2 fish
b) by limping we are not scary and opponent will call us even lighter than normally
c) we have bad hand against person who loves to call us down
d) calling gives us reasonable pot odds and raising against short stack, if called, gives us very little space to work with.

Why raising is good imo:
a) we get fold equity pre and flop when we most likely miss.

Last edited by braveslice; Thu Aug 15, 2013 at 11:22 PM..
 

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