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short stacking cash games

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short stacking cash games - Tue Aug 13, 2013, 08:12 PM
(#1)
ImpactPoint's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 213
Why do so many people hate short stackers?


Why is there a stigma about buying in for 100bb stacks? (when most players that play that stack size arnt equipt in there game to play it)

Playing a smaller stack simplifies everything. (makes decisions easier)

The reason people hate short stackers so much is because there stuck in the concept of everyone should buy in for x amount, and in reality these players (100bb specialists)havnt a clue how to play against short stacks, more over dont want to learn how to play against them, (wich is fine)

Theres an art in playing short, like there is playing deep,a laggy short stack is a very hard player to play against,they even attack these players verbaly? Then they try to rid poker sites of short stack buy-ins? WHY? Because they feel it might give them an edge? Poker always evolves, different styles are taught to us - and were supposed to follow suit - even losing players mock short stacking, its time we dropped the stigma and evolve our own games, to a style we want to play.

Maybe we shouold ridicule deep stack players? (perish the thought)

I personally think that short stacking is more profitable, maybe next year if theres any interest i,ll do a challenge!!

i would love to see graphs/winrates for micro stakes players (100bb) upto 25nl over a large sample size, to see what there winrates are like over a decent sample of 50k hands, if any of you have plz feel free to post them.

Also feel free to leave comments,

All the best impactpoint.
 
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Tue Aug 13, 2013, 09:13 PM
(#2)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
I love playing Laggy Short stackers, (colour coded bright orange) as they don't give themselves great (implied) odds to play a large range of cards (small piars and suited connectors Therefore the good ones fold to 3 bets and play fit or fold. and the bad ones are money in the sock under the bed.

Even easier are tight short stackers if the raise they have a big pair.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 02:04 AM
(#3)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
For the most part short stackers are really bad and don't do it because they are playing the short stacker strategy - they do it because they are weak and or stupid.

Then there are those for who it is a strategy and they seek to play it optimally by putting bigger stacks under pressure shoving more or less their entire range over any raise. Their range often just consisting of TT/JJ+ and AK. The good thing is with the good short stackers, once you have identified them, you can exploit them too.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...-stacks-17011/

The link above is to a two plus two thread where e strategy on taking on short stackers at their own game is discussed. It's still relevant today as the short stackers game doesn't change much because it is all built round playing as few streets as possible with difficult decisions. That's why they shove so much - it hurts them to have to think about pot odds etc. so they shove their light range knowing if you have a marginal hand you usually will fold.

Last Friday night though, I have to say I loved playing the short stackers, stacked the same guy twice when he had QQ and because he was short stacked I could call his shove with AK pre-flop. It certainly padded the winnings that evening.

Even on Sunday when my KK lost twice all-in versus a short stacker, it was only 40bb each time, and I had already stacked a few by that point too.

Don't fear the short stackers, learn their game and when you get the chance play their own game against them, put them to the decisions they try and use against you.

And as for the bad short stackers, well, they are good value both money wise and entertainment wise as they raise/call/fold with small stacks.

Last edited by bhoylegend; Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 11:48 AM..
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 04:35 AM
(#4)
ImpactPoint's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 213
lmfao @ comments.

Mr legend your comments alone are unclassy, your classing of short stackers as being stupid/weak and that it hurts them to think about pot odds rather sums up the vast majority of 100bb players -you ridicule short stackers and make no comment at just how terrible 100bb players are, why is that? are you some master of deep stack nl?

MR boys comment below.

Even on Sunday when my KK lost twice all-in versus a short stacker, it was only 40bb each time, and I had already stacked a few by that point too.

Seems short stackers are not the only stack players who are exploitable. lmfao.

Last edited by ImpactPoint; Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 04:55 AM..
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 04:58 AM
(#5)
ImpactPoint's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
I love playing Laggy Short stackers, (colour coded bright orange) as they don't give themselves great (implied) odds to play a large range of cards (small piars and suited connectors Therefore the good ones fold to 3 bets and play fit or fold. and the bad ones are money in the sock under the bed.

Even easier are tight short stackers if the raise they have a big pair.

Grade b
What kind of winrate do you have at micro stakes nl cash games?

Would be nice top see your graph, sounds like you kill the game (against short stackers anyways)
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 05:19 AM
(#6)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImpactPoint View Post
lmfao @ comments.

Mr legend your comments alone are unclassy, your classing of short stackers as being stupid/weak and that it hurts them to think about pot odds rather sums up the vast majority of 100bb players -you ridicule short stackers and make no comment at just how terrible 100bb players are, why is that? are you some master of deep stack nl?

MR boys comment below.

Even on Sunday when my KK lost twice all-in versus a short stacker, it was only 40bb each time, and I had already stacked a few by that point too.

Seems short stackers are not the only stack players who are exploitable. lmfao.
Unclassy?

You came looking for an argument 'Maybe we shouold ridicule deep stack players? (perish the thought)' so what exactly were you expecting your thread to bring?

The fact is that the majority of people who are playing with a short stack are either stupid or feeble minded. A lot won't have been able to figure out that there is even an option to auto top-up. Some may even have started with a 100bb and whittled it away to become a short stack. What are these players that play with a 27bb stack if not weak? Are they playing some super advanced strategy or something? No, they are clueless.

Why don't I ridicule 100bb players? No-one started a thread talking about 100bb players. Of course there are tonnes of bad 100bb players and I enjoy stacking them too. Much as I am sure they enjoy stacking me.

If you think getting it in pre with KK against a short stacker is exploitative then you're wrong. More often than not they will turn up with TT-JJ+ or AK. I'm more than happy to take that range on with KK.

So play your strategy if you want but don't come here and put out the 'why does everyone hate us' nonsense and expect it to go unopposed.

I encourage everyone who plays against short stackers to read CryMeARiver's thread and start to use a short stackers strategy against them. Once you identify who the good ones and who the bad ones are then use that info.

Learn the mindset of a shortstacker, it shouldn't take too long, they only play pre-flop and flop the majority of the time.

Last edited by bhoylegend; Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 05:31 AM..
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 06:32 AM
(#7)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
I think that stereotyping any category of poker players is bad.
There might be a lot of good and bad short stack players.
The only reason that people hate shortstacks is because 100 BB's deep, people usually play small ball poker which is not profitable vs shortstacks, thus they are getting exploited.
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 07:10 AM
(#8)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by GamblingProp View Post
I think that stereotyping any category of poker players is bad.
There might be a lot of good and bad short stack players.
That's true.

I could probably just have said the majority of poker players are weak, stupid/feeble minded because the fact is the majority just don't care enough to work at the game and improve.

I don't think there should be any sympathy in poker at all, including for short stackers, they play to exploit but they can be exploited too.

I'll check out later whether I am allowed to post the 2+2 strategy for exploiting shortstackers.

It's good reading.
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:01 AM
(#9)
ImpactPoint's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 213
For your information MR unclassy the blog is about why do people hate short stackers - u didnt grab the concept of the question or my post in anyway what so ever - all you did was post stupid thick comments and underhanded short stackers to be weak/stupid people, with no brains. Your pathetic reply made me throw back my comments in a plausable way, maybe you should read the blog propely before responding.

I most certainly didnt come looking for a argument, you just made it look that way, you seem confused lol.

Last edited by ImpactPoint; Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 08:09 AM..
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:03 AM
(#10)
ImpactPoint's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by GamblingProp View Post
I think that stereotyping any category of poker players is bad.
There might be a lot of good and bad short stack players.
The only reason that people hate shortstacks is because 100 BB's deep, people usually play small ball poker which is not profitable vs shortstacks, thus they are getting exploited.
Well put gamblingprop, seems you grasped the question in the blog.
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 10:55 AM
(#11)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImpactPoint View Post
I personally think that short stacking is more profitable, maybe next year if theres any interest i,ll do a challenge!!
Short-stacking is demonstrably less profitable than buying in full, if we assume there is no skill edge. With deeper stacks, there are more post-flop decisions, which means more room for mistakes, which means greater scope for exploitation of those mistakes, which means greater profit.
If you don't believe this, imagine being able to buy-in for either 1000bbb or 1bb on a table where every else has 100bb. How does having a 1bb "stack" lead to greater profit? Answer: it does not, and cannot.

FWIW, I've short-stacked in the past, and would possibly do it again when taking shots at higher stakes than usual, but I can understand why 100bb players get annoyed by them. The simple reason is, if a shorty is in the hand, then everyone is "effectively" short, so has to adjust. It's somewhat annoying having to tighten up your range because there's a shorty in the blinds, for example. It's hard to exploit a "good" short-stacker, because the effective stack is smaller.
That being said, most short-stackers at microstakes are terribad, because they don't understand how a shorter stack should be used. If these terribad shorties were forced to buy in for 100bb, they would be making even bigger mistakes, which would lead to greater profits for the deep-stacked regs.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 11:43 AM
(#12)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImpactPoint View Post
For your information MR unclassy the blog is about why do people hate short stackers - u didnt grab the concept of the question or my post in anyway what so ever - all you did was post stupid thick comments and underhanded short stackers to be weak/stupid people, with no brains. Your pathetic reply made me throw back my comments in a plausable way, maybe you should read the blog propely before responding.

I most certainly didnt come looking for a argument, you just made it look that way, you seem confused lol.
First off, you made a forum post here, not a blog. Blogs go in the blog section. Further to that, you made the forum post in the beginners questions and education section inferring that short stacking is an art, which it really isn't.

It's a way of removing difficult decisions from your game. You openly admit this in your opening post.

For people who play a short stack strategy (As opposed to those who play short stacked because there is a clear distinction that I understand) it is about making life easy for them by giving bigger stacks a mathematical disincentive from continuing with speculative hands against them.

And just to be clear, I class people who play with a short stack, who aren't playing a short stack strategy to be weak and stupid. They don't want to lose 100bb so buy in for less - some may have other reasons but playing 40bb and thinking you can play the same as someone 100bb is idiocy.

I class those who short stack and play with the correct strategy to be an occasional nuisance but so far at least I am taking more than is taken from me. My main motivation for posting in this thread is to get rid of the notion that short stackers are being unfairly treated or that it is some great art because it simply isn't.

I'd like everyone who has trouble with short stackers to read the link I provided above too, learn what a short stacker is trying to do, and return the favour.

Good luck on your challenge. Let us know how your easy decision making process plays out for you.
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 11:43 AM
(#13)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
I've got to say, this is a funny discussion.

The game is all about being profitable

If you're profitable with a short stack, than continue, same applies for full stacks

To say that it's more profitable one way or another is wrong. Yes with a bigger stack you'll win bigger pots, but you'll also lose bigger pots. Yes with a bigger stack you can scare smaller stacks, but if the small stack is holding AA, there's no way he'll get scared.

I see regular short stacks at 50NL every time I play (starting with 50BB), I know who they are and I treat them the same way as a full stack, in other words, I play MY game. Last night playing my 50NL, at one point, 3 players had just over 250BB, one had over 800BB ($427) and the other was at 164BB and here I was at 87BB. At one point you do get to be the SS and you've got to adapt and same applies for the big stack.

If a full stack as a BB/100 of 3.8 and the small stack as a BB/100 of 6.9, hmmmm who's got the best return?

I started playing with 50BB to get use to the game, playing tight, being patient, all while learning. I was playing ABC poker (not the numbers game..lol) and I'm very happy with where I'm at today. Yes, today I now play full stack, because I'm confident with my play and I've got the bankroll to support me.

Would I suggest short stack to beginners, yes, as long as they are willing to learn the game. I read a lot of crying about SS, that it's no fun for the BS based on the numbers game, I say let them cry, they're probably losers...lol (JK)

Just play your game with what ever stack you want, it's your game. As long as at the end of the day you've made a profit, that's the main objective.

PS. That article in 2+2 is outdated (2007), players have adjusted since.

GL to what ever stack size you play with
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 12:01 PM
(#14)
ImpactPoint's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 213
For the record i dont play short stack nl cash games - its merely a discussion has to why do players hate short stackers, wich obviously MRclassy doesnt seem to get, and wishes all to look at the post on beating short stackers, its a general discussion.

+ this is about micro stakes as stated - its very obvious against better players above 25nl that they will have a very good understanding about short stack play, and will adjust accordingly.

And 40bb isnt short stacking really, its an inbetween amount from short to medium, short stacking is 30bb and under in my opinion.

Artys and sandtraps replys are geniune and dont in the slightest go into slamming short stack poker, all buy in depths are of equal skill, and both can get edges against each other - i shant bother replying anymore to Mr classy, it really aint worth it.

Its getting rather low on his behalf saying iv,e put this in the wrong section (yawn)

Short stacking can be a good start for BEGINNERS - is this a beginners question section? Of course it is.

All the best Impactpoint

Last edited by ImpactPoint; Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 12:15 PM..
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 01:00 PM
(#15)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImpactPoint View Post
For the record i dont play short stack nl cash games - its merely a discussion has to why do players hate short stackers, wich obviously MRclassy doesnt seem to get, and wishes all to look at the post on beating short stackers, its a general discussion.
Perhaps you missed it, I'd not be shocked at that, but I think I stated why some people hate short stackers. You shouldn't need to look too far to see why I state that is. It's to do with not having implied odds for hands, it's to do with mathematics basically, there are countless posts on the Internet (2+2) that go into the deep intricacies of the subject but that's what it boils down to.

And this is the education section. What's the problem posting an educational post on beating short stackers if someone looks like he/she is thinking about adopting it? And calling it an art.
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 01:11 PM
(#16)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
What Sandtrap said and close thread.
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 02:19 PM
(#17)
ImpactPoint's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 213
Agreed prop - close the thread - the likes of Mrclassy make these threads irratable.
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 02:45 PM
(#18)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Short-stacking CAN be a very profitable way to play.. IF.. one knows how and when to shove, to maximize their equity (also when to call shoves to maximize their equity). To do so effectively, they need to know which ranges are shovable from their current table position (changes every hand) and stack size. If they know which are the +EV spots, it absolutely can be done effectively.

However, the problem that most players have though, is that the majority of the players that are short-stacking, have absolutely no clue of this concept and look at it as a way to be a shove monkey and disrupt the game by being a shove monkey... and there are definitely very easy ways to consistently beat those players.

If you're not comfortable getting it in, in marginal +EV situations, then this type of play is probably not for you.

When playing, different people fit into different styles and different types of games. The key is to find what works for you and to go with it and exploit the players in that type of game.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 02:50 PM
(#19)
effsea's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
I've got to say, this is a funny discussion.

The game is all about being profitable

If you're profitable with a short stack, than continue, same applies for full stacks

To say that it's more profitable one way or another is wrong. Yes with a bigger stack you'll win bigger pots, but you'll also lose bigger pots. Yes with a bigger stack you can scare smaller stacks, but if the small stack is holding AA, there's no way he'll get scared.

I see regular short stacks at 50NL every time I play (starting with 50BB), I know who they are and I treat them the same way as a full stack, in other words, I play MY game. Last night playing my 50NL, at one point, 3 players had just over 250BB, one had over 800BB ($427) and the other was at 164BB and here I was at 87BB. At one point you do get to be the SS and you've got to adapt and same applies for the big stack.

If a full stack as a BB/100 of 3.8 and the small stack as a BB/100 of 6.9, hmmmm who's got the best return?

I started playing with 50BB to get use to the game, playing tight, being patient, all while learning. I was playing ABC poker (not the numbers game..lol) and I'm very happy with where I'm at today. Yes, today I now play full stack, because I'm confident with my play and I've got the bankroll to support me.

Would I suggest short stack to beginners, yes, as long as they are willing to learn the game. I read a lot of crying about SS, that it's no fun for the BS based on the numbers game, I say let them cry, they're probably losers...lol (JK)

Just play your game with what ever stack you want, it's your game. As long as at the end of the day you've made a profit, that's the main objective.

PS. That article in 2+2 is outdated (2007), players have adjusted since.

GL to what ever stack size you play with

What he said.....hiccup
 
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Thu Aug 15, 2013, 04:38 PM
(#20)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImpactPoint View Post
What kind of winrate do you have at micro stakes nl cash games?

Would be nice top see your graph, sounds like you kill the game (against short stackers anyways)

This month I have played 174 villains playing (an effective) stack between 0 and 40 bb for a net profit of $9.54 (mostly at 2nl) (5.5 cents per person)

437 villians when effective stack is between 40 and 80 bb = $26.46 profit (6 cents per person)

1153 between 80 and 150 bb's for $8.92 profit (0.8 cents per person)

578 betwwen 150bb and 300bb for a loss of $7.34 (1.3 cents to each person)

for comparison i have in total faced 1520 villians for a total profit of $36.32 (2.4 cents per person)


Can't yet workout how to get that into a graph but will try.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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