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25 nl zoom right play ?

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25 nl zoom right play ? - Wed Aug 14, 2013, 12:07 PM
(#1)
xdan_ch_danx's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 7


Villain had VP/PF/3b 17/13/17 only 27 hands played with him,normaly i would've folded his 3 bet or maybe if i would had more hands and his 3bet% would be lower i would fold...but i had 1 more note about him that he raised with Q3s...so i just want 2 know if i maked the right decision preflop by 4bet-ing him. Thank you.
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 01:17 PM
(#2)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
I don't like the 4bet. 55 is a hand that plays terrible post flop unless we hit a set, and has almost no barreling equity. We are up against a super strong range when he 3bs the utg raiser, so we should call and set mine. We are getting a good price IP and stacks being 200bb deep.

I think our sizing should also be a bit more smaller in a 3b pot (maybe 75% because I havn't seen a wetter flop since waterworld).

After that just barrel the turn 75% pot and shove or bet the river big.
 
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Thu Aug 15, 2013, 06:15 AM
(#3)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Hi

If you thought that he was likely to be 3betting light here I would just call with 55 and play my position and perceived stronger utg range against a range containing a lot of weaker hands. The stack depth plays in our favor and I think it is very unlikely he is going crazy postflop with 200bb in stake = very easy to play in position.

If he was more likely to be 3betting unpolarized range containing a lot of AQo,AQs,AJs,TT,99 type of hands (not very likely in these positions) then I like the 4bet (this is where a read comes in handy). Again, with 200bb deep I do not expect him to ever 5bet light against your utg 4bet with anything other than KK and AA (and even KK might just call thinking we are only stacking off KK+). Our 4bet puts a lot of pressure on his middle strength hands and I think he would fold a ton preflop or play very honestly postflop on most boards (again, a read would be useful). I would size the 4bet a big bigger though. We do not want him to call with everything he 3bet with. If he was making a move with JTs we should make it big enough to make him fold those hands with very good equity against our weak pair.

As played I think you should bet less both on flop and turn. Your sizing makes it almost impossible for anyone to put you on a bluff which allows a competent player to fold a big chunk of his value hands to this action. If you are never bluffing here it is very difficult to beat your utg stack off range on this board 200bb deep (unless he had a read on you that you overvalue your hands greatly and do not change your stack off ranges according to depth of effective stack). I think I would put you squarely on AA (or better) because too many people play AA this way. I think you were lucky that he was the one holding this hand because in the long run i think you would be losing a ton of value against his lower overpairs.
 
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Thu Aug 15, 2013, 07:12 AM
(#4)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Hi xdan_ch_danx

I agree with birdayy about the preflop action. The villain's stats don't indicate that he is playing overly loose with a vpip of 17%, simply that he has been rather aggressive 3-betting in the few hands you have. Moreover, since you are raising from utg, the villain's 3-bet range will be much tighter than if you had raised from the btn or sb.

I like calling here rather than 4-betting. Stacks are deep, you will have position and we surely don't want to 4-bet and get forced to fold to a 5-bet. Calling keeps the villain's range wide and let's us see the flop before the pot gets too out of control.

As played, the villain willingly calls your 4-bet oop. Without a better read on him, I think we can assume he has a top end pocket pair 1010+ or AQs+ and most likely the pais at the top end of this range QQ+. You hit the jackpot flopping a set. Now the question becomes how to get maximum value out of the hand.

I would lead out with anywhere between 70% to 100% of the pot here. I don't really mind betting pot sized. The villain's range seems to contain mainly overpairs to the board. Making a pot sized bet may be construed as a bluff bet trying to steal the pot more than a value bet. Once the villain calls your flop bet, it seems very likely that he has a big pocket pair and is trying to slowplay you.

The 3 on the turn is unlikely to have helped your opponenent. Yet, the spot is a bit awkward due to your remaining stack size. Since there is a possible flush draw, which the villain may think you are chasing aggressively, I don't like the idea of betting small like 30%. If another club falls on the river it may stop the villain from putting more in the pot. I like your bet size, even though it leaves you with an insignificant amount behind. I think anything between 75% and 100% will be good. Thankfully the villain moves all in for your remaining stack. KK or AA seems very likely now. Triple fist pump as Dave says, and hope your set holds on the river. And, yes, villain just got his aces cracked.

Nice result! Just remember, with deep stacks in a preflop spot like this. Try to keep the pot under control. We want to flop a set and double up rather than turn our hand into a bluff by 4-betting.

GL at the tables! I'll keep an eye out for you on 25NL Zoom

Roland GTX
 
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Thu Aug 15, 2013, 07:57 AM
(#5)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Oh yeah I forgot... I sometimes use completely wrong logic in these situations and somehow assume you should at least try to fake being balanced (which is obviously nonsense). At 25NL nobody is going to take advantage of your completely unbalanced lines 200bb deep anyway so just go pot, pot and laugh when you get called by JJ. Roland is completely right. Please disregard my original reply. Play it ABC, always call preflop here, do not assume too much without reads and print money

P.S. Just keep in mind that you can never bluff the flop and turn against any good observant opponent (have not met one at 25NL zoom so far...). If your value lines in 4b pots are pot, pot then you should use the same line for your bluffs = you would be pretty crazy to bluff 2 streets with that sizing. If your value lines vary depending on your hand strength that is also very easily exploitable (I hope you are at least betting AA and KK this way to not have your range only packed with 2pair+). But hey, even if based on your betsizing pattern you can only ever have a set nobody says you will get a fold from any overpair at 25NL

Last edited by TommyGun369; Thu Aug 15, 2013 at 08:06 AM..
 
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Thu Aug 15, 2013, 08:18 AM
(#6)
danutzz16's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 9
I think it's the wrong play preflop and turned out good for you.when he 3bets your raise from UTG you can be sure his range is QQ-AA,best case AK suited
The play post flop just speaks for itself he didn't tought you had the set,and pushed on turn(where he could fold also)
As i've read in replies you could've played it slightly different preflop..but i think it ended to the same result
Long term ..if he 3bets from BB my opinion/advise is to just call OR fold..with these low pairs(you don't hit the set..hard to get value)

!
 
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Thu Aug 15, 2013, 08:34 AM
(#7)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by danutzz16 View Post
when he 3bets your raise from UTG you can be sure his range is QQ-AA,best case AK suited
Not necessarily. If his range really only includes these hands he is either not a very smart poker player or he thinks you are really weak/too aggressive with 4bets with hands like JJ,TT/play bad in some other way and he had adjusted his 3bet range specifically to your or the player pool's tendencies.
 
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Thu Aug 15, 2013, 08:47 AM
(#8)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
maybe 75% because I havn't seen a wetter flop since waterworld
Hmm. I would not say this flop is wet at all. How many hands do you think he 3bet calls with in BB vs UTG that connect with this board? Even if you 4bet 100% of hands you open with utg how many of those can actually flop a draw on that board? The only drawing hands I see either of you having are and I doubt he is taking this line with all of them that often. Even if he did, that would be just 5 hand combos you need to be worried about. Compare it to the number of hand combos of overpairs he could have: 6x AA, 6x KK, 6x QQ, 6x JJ = 24 hand combination + he could have just AK which makes up 16 hand combos in total (AQ is another 16 combos if he has that). That's why I originally thought a smaller bet OTF would be in order to maybe encourage a loose peel from AK or a very rare bluffraise from anything that would want us to fold AK high.
 

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