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Moving to SNGs or MTTs

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Moving to SNGs or MTTs - Wed Aug 14, 2013, 03:10 PM
(#1)
BooRay199's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 18
Hi all,

Since I have been focusing most of my attention to NL cash i come to conclusion that It might not be the game for me. I have worked quite hard and all I can say is that proobably I migh have wrong aproach towards NLcash. I am actualy profitable in microstakes but just for a little (1,89 BB/100) so I spend 200hrs for 100 000 hands playing 7 tables on average. Therefore In past month I neted 26$ (without promotions), which makes 0,13$/h.

Meanwhile I played some MTT freerols and to my surprise when I checked in my pokertracker I made 59$. well I know I cashed often and once came out 4th but I was still surprised how much I pilled up.

So now I decided that I will make a switch to tourneys or SNGs. I would like to know your opinions about SNGs or MTTs and how to aproach them.

I am not looking to go rich quick and all out at start.
My main goal for now is to earn around 200$ extra a month since I am currently payed around 1000$/month and not I a mood to risk and change a job because it is solid and I like where I work.

Would you recommend for start better SNG or MTT?
And do you recommend to work on solid strategy and play basicly abc poker on multiple tables(minimize human factor), or should I focus more on 1 or 2 tables and exploit players as much as possible and maximize ROI by playing less tables?
How big should my bankroll be, and how often and how big are variances in these games?
Where should I seek for knowledge other than basic course here, (some books or videos)?
How experienced is the competition in low and micro stakes here?

enough questions for now, I will ask more later.

I have some basic knowledge about SNGs and MTTs i know basic strategies and concepts when to enter pots and during cash play I have developed "decent"(in my opinion) postflop skills. I still dont understeand ICM correctly but I want to, just doesnt clicks jet
I need some miles to get some cash flowing but I want to start at the right place, so I created this thread. I am willing to sudy and work hard so lets begin

I would like to thank all that participate in PSO community, so far I have learned a lot, and maybe someday I could give something back.

Thanks!
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 04:26 PM
(#2)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Would you recommend for start better SNG or MTT?

A STT is just one big MTT that has reached a final table, improving your game here will win you more in MTTs but saying that, play what you enjoy and put focus in all area's of a MTT/ STT.

And do you recommend to work on solid strategy and play basicly abc poker on multiple tables(minimize human factor), or should I focus more on 1 or 2 tables and exploit players as much as possible and maximize ROI by playing less tables?


I do both, just be aware of blind levels and chips in your stack. I'm assuming your using a HUD, just play to your stats and be aware of your opponents.

How big should my bankroll be, and how often and how big are variances in these games?


I'd work to 100 buy ins for both but I also take shots ie. play the occasional Storm but on another site I'm 6 tabling STTs with far less than this but always keeping track of my balance. Knowing your overall ability and ROI helps but you will only get that with experience. *Edit* I've had 20+ spells where I failed to cash even with an overall ROI of 14% in STT form.

Where should I seek for knowledge other than basic course here, (some books or videos)?


I'd recommend playing more than anything, I've worked out my own style which works for me but try and play to what works for you. Always review your hands, remember it's not always the exit hand that does the damage, look for spots where you won or lost big and ask yourself could you have done anything different.


How experienced is the competition in low and micro stakes here?

There is a couple of very decent regs even at the smallest stakes. Keep an eye on them and work out their game. There's many more ABC shovebots that play like a rock until they have 10 BBs then they shove and steal every time they are in position and are first to act. There's also many more whales. Just let the whales donate you chips, steal a lot more from the shovebots but be aware of the decent players. Try to 3 and 4 bet the decent players more rather than call. I use the Steal stat and fold to steal stat in my HUD but a basic MTT/STT strategy works - start tight until you get a feel for the table and adjust your game as the blind level changes.

Hope this helps.


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by Ovalman; Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 04:27 PM.. Reason: added edit
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 04:38 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
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Ovalman's right on target here.

There are a number of regs, but there are a larger number of bad players. Keep your eye on the regs and don't try to over-do it against them.

For a bankroll, I always use 100 buy-ins. If my bankroll drops below that, then I need to play smaller games to build it back up. Even playing the 45-man SNG's, I've had plenty of streaks where I've got 30 games in a row without cashing (even though my ITM% in them is over 40% with a +ROI). These variance streaks WILL happen and we need to be prepared for them.

In the micros, most of the players are only level 1 thinkers, so don't try to be too tricky. Stay one level ahead of the competition and adjust it with the players at your tables.

For MTT's, try to look at the $$ added games or guaranteed prize pools, if there are any at the level you're playing. If a guaranteed game comes up short in entrants... take full advantage of it.

Good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 05:55 PM
(#4)
BooRay199's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 18
Thanks for your quick response.

I got alot of valuable info I needed. I think I like SNGs more than MTTs (maybe because of my busy day schelldule it is easyer to find 1h windows than 3+h) but MTTs are always intimidating because of the first 3 prizes.

For HUD I use pokertracker 4, what stats do you use on HUD for sngs (apart from Steal stat and fold to steal stat).. At cash games I didnt need to look at tables to get idea what kind of players there are I just checked stats but I find that very diferent at tourneys, so I will proobably start with 1 table and slowly progress to more. How much tables do you manage to play at once?

when I have a downstreak, I get doubts about my aproach, how do you coap with that, that you don't change your style of play. Proobaly that comes with and experience and some mental preperation to believe in what you do, but do you have some other tips?

thanks!
 
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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 06:14 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
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I'm just starting to use a HUD (on 30 day trial of PT4).. so I'll leave that one up to the others that have used it longer.

when I hit a downstreak (or winning streak), I'm always going back thru the big hands to see if I misplayed something. Reviewing the hands is the key here. You don't want to just start making changes to your game, unless you see a leak.

John (JWK24)


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Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:19 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by BooRay199 View Post
For HUD I use pokertracker 4, what stats do you use on HUD for sngs (apart from Steal stat and fold to steal stat).. At cash games I didnt need to look at tables to get idea what kind of players there are I just checked stats but I find that very diferent at tourneys, so I will proobably start with 1 table and slowly progress to more. How much tables do you manage to play at once?
PSO Live trainer Andy (ahar010) recommends a very simple HUD for use in SnGs, and I'd go along with his advice. You can download the PT4 HUD he designed in his feedback thread HERE. I'm not sure if the session in which he showed how to set it up has been archived just yet, but there's lots of other great videos on his archive page.

I think STTs are a great low variance way to build a bankroll. Playing just one or two tables will give you time to think about each decision carefully, while also allowing you to take notes and pick up reads. Good luck!


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Thu Aug 15, 2013, 12:35 PM
(#7)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Hi BooRay,
I use VPiP, PFR, 3Bet, AggF, Steal and Fold to Steal. I also use Notecaddy software which is a HEM add on.

Use what you feel is useful though, fold to 3bet stat would probably be good against a reg who will steal in position and fold to a 3bet but that's just one of many you could add.


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Thu Aug 15, 2013, 01:07 PM
(#8)
BooRay199's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 18
Thanks alot. Got all the information I need for now. Now it is up to me

Good luck to you all
 
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Thu Aug 15, 2013, 07:43 PM
(#9)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,424
Hi Boo (sorry if i scared ya lol)

I just posted and read this thread and wanted to add my thoughts

From my limited experienc eof cash games they are easier than SNG and tournaments so be careful and use proper bankroll maangement of 100 buyins

I woul d play where the entrants i s less than 1000 or even 100 i sbetter while building a bankroll as its easier to cash

Once you have a bankroll you could thne play the MTT

I cannot give out much strategy advice as im no expert but tight is right in the beginning

Ive read somewhere to have as a goal as $ amount is bad so just try to do your best /learn/play and the results will follow and be what they are

Some of the micro player sare bad soonce you can beat them you will build your bankroll

If youever go on tilt what i do if i still want to play is drop down to play money and if im still playing bad it dont really matter to my bankroll

Another tip an obvious one bt one i used is freerolls are a great way of building a bnakroll...oh and try to attending training on here if you just starting out i recommend Andy ahar but then again they are all great bu tsome specialise in cash others higher stakes some 6max

All we are missing is a female turbo tutor lol

By working and studying hard(which is my plan also) this is a very good starting out decision i think

Just read everyone elses advice soif ive sai dsam ething as a few people itmust be right

I wa sonce worse than a beginner an di havent progressed much but JWK advice is always solid and magnificent .andnow I have ever so slightly improved I understand his words of wisdom even more

He plays much higher but has an excellent way of pointing you towards the truth

good luck in your journey and remember your career is long so if you dont go bankrupt the luck part of the game evens out

rolo
 
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Fri Aug 16, 2013, 04:03 PM
(#10)
BooRay199's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 18
Hi

I am very surprised how nice people are in this poker community, on most forums I find people who are rude and just playing smart. Here It is very different.

rolo834, why would you scare me I' am actualy very grateful when someone is helping me out.

I find your opinion interesting, because for me NL cash is very very hard (even 2NL, somethimes I find more fish in 5NL than in 2NL), I mean I can stay above the water but my edge is so small. For great edge I can only play 1 table, and by making note to every odd moves people make. But even then you have to be so patient that somethimes it hurts my brain, therefore I find it very very hard to play and have fun in the process. Winning dolars is part of the fun but in 2NL it is not much of a reward if you are 1 tabling with great edge.

Now that I have switched to SNGs I found out that probably SNGs are better for me.. I find it more interesting - because it gets more and more intense as the levels go up (I like that). Also if you make wrong folds you didn't lost money, just chips, and sometimes I find it easier to fold because I know I will still be in a chance for top prize regardless if I make a tight fold. I also found out that when Heads UP people are more willing to gamble at low stakes, so I usualy can exploit them. Not that I have played alot of SNGs but so far these are my opinions maybe I have to go long long way to get true colors of STT SNGs.

With help of PSO members I made a good flying start. Maybe luck was on my side, but it is nice to net some profit:


Thanks!
Good luck
 
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Fri Aug 16, 2013, 05:16 PM
(#11)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
A basic STT strategy is to start off very tight and loosen as the blinds increase and players decrease. Bubble time (ie. 1 before the payouts start) is the most critical stage, you have to know when to steal/ fold/ shove etc. After the bubble then go all out for the win.

There's many players that know this strategy and STTs are becoming harder which is why I mentioned rock/ shovetards above because (apart from the whales) you will come up against these players the most. To become successful you need to read a table and players. Every table and players are different, you have to adjust to each and not fall into the rock/ shovetard type.

One good thing about learning a STT's is it becomes easier playing a final table of a MTT. Think of a MTT as one giant STT and you can play the same strategy on these when you get there.

If you become competent you can also apply STT strategy to games like Fifty/50's and knockouts with just a few adjustments - as I found STTs difficult on Stars I changed to STTs in Limit form and that's where most of my 14% ROI comes from. I've also played Omaha and Stud. I play a STT game and adopt it to these forms, not that I'm any expert in the cash aspect of these types of games.

Good luck and keep us posted on how you get on.


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Sat Aug 17, 2013, 10:09 AM
(#12)
BooRay199's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 18
Speaking of a bubble. Why is it recomended everywhere to showe it everytime? And is understeanding ICM realy so important. Because I don't understeand ICM very well. I understeand that chips that player have are not in direct connection with money and that its value depends on how many chips player has and how the prize pool is distributed. But how it aplies on calling ranges against different players is unknown to me
 
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Sat Aug 17, 2013, 10:40 AM
(#13)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
There's a few bits of information on the bubble needed to know how to play in a specific spot.

First thing I look at is my chipstack and relation to everyone else's. If I'm short stack and less than 10BBs then I need to do the work. I pick a hand and shove but you also need to know the next bit of info:

What is the likelyhood of my opponents calling? Against a maniac I'll tighten up, against a rock I'll shove looser.

If I'm medium stack then I don't need to do the work and I let my opponents go to war.

If I'm big stack then I'll bully the middle stacks but only go against the short if I'm strong. The short stacks are the ones who need to do the work but you don't want to double them up.

Again you need to know your opponents and when to shove. I'd much rather shove than call, 66 for instance is a great shoving hand but only if your first to get your chips in. Calling 66 is a mistake because you have only 1 way of winning the hand and that is by winning. If you shove you have 2 ways - you can still win but you can also win without a showdown. When the blinds are high, winning without a showdown adds a great % of chips to your stack. Always be the shover, not the caller.

If you've over 10BBs then add the option of a min raise to your play. This is table dependent but you can use a min raise and low raise effectively and add it to your play.

Big hands of course should always be shoved/ raised because you still want to accumulate chips at any opportunity.

I was playing like this without ever knowing ICM but my style is very similar to ICM modelling so whether I knew it or not I was playing an ICM game. Yes you should read up on ICM as I think ICM would cover the strategy I just gave.

You don't have to understand ICM fully to play. Just be observant at the table, many maniacs will tighten up at the bubble stage, if your observant then you can steal a lot more at this stage.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sat Aug 17, 2013, 09:09 PM
(#14)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,424
was meant as a joke ...the boo part

I wa stalking in general..actually I think pokerstars is one of th ehardest sites to win at......but little evidence to supportthis and i play mainly on here altough in futue iwill spread it around

glad you go toff to a good start as idid but when a ba dspeel coem sremember bankroll maangement is your friend.....it can stop you from losing everything !!

yeah i wasonce part of a differentforum albeit briefly and i ddint like it i think all the god people left and cam ehere

cannt make out your pic ...bu twell done in pasting 1 as i dont kno whow to do that evn

I do prefer tournaments myself except for turbos...i wont tell u what i call turbos but its not very nice
 
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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:47 AM
(#15)
BooRay199's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 18
Hello,

Talking about turbos and shovebots.

How exactly do you have to adapt your game to turbos and hyperturbos, I know you need to get reads faster and to loosen calling/raising range. But what is the correct way to play them? all tuttorials are based on regular speed, usualy they dont mention strategy for turbos and faster..

To cover area of shove-bots, as I understand these are that kind of people who play very very tight hand selection and as their stack gets shorter their calling range widens and because they are by that point already short stacked they usualy shove. Is that kind of play profitable, I guess it is profitable to some degree of competition but even if you are more advanced player it is hard to play against them. My strategy is to steal as much as possible from them, and call them with monsters, and even that way you suck out sometimes but that is just variance I guess. But if being shove-bot is profitable that is easy way to profit right?

about my game:
I noticed that for me playing 1 table is much more reliable than playing 2 (which sounds not very much). How bad is that, that I can focus only on 1 table? Usualy now I played 2, but somethimes trying just one and I found out that I spot so much mistakes and my decisions are usualy better. How do you train for more tables. Now I am playing 1table SNG and on other table some MTT freeroll, my focus is mainly on SNG then I try to play MTT based on statistics from PT.. What do you recommend? Sice I noticed that if playing 2 tables worse than 1, its just throwing money out the window right?

and my progress:
I had 1 8session loosing streak, when I had a few bad beats and after that I made some bad calls so I went out and do a few DH runs with my bike to clear my head, then refocused and back to winning. I' am a bit angry at myself because my tilt costed me 3-4games, dunno how would they end if I wouldn't call bad, but still I did wrong calls and not happy about it. but what is done is done and I hope I learned something although it wasn't costly

here is my PT graph of my 41 sessions for now. I'll have to slow down now because of work during weekdays, but I will try to find time for a few sessions.


Thank you! and good luck
 
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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:55 AM
(#16)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
For many years I 1 tabled without a HUD and my ROI was higher so there's nothing with playing 1 at a time. Where a HUD has helped my has been to multi table, I can play 10+ at times with a profit although my brain does start to get pickled after a short session.

Turbos are only slightly different from Normal games and Turbo's on Stars are the same speed as many regular games on other sites. I base my decisions in both Normal and Turbo's according to amount of BBs in my stack. The same requirements are needed for both, just less premiums. You want to maximise things when you get a premium but keep things constant so as not to give away tells.

I don't have too much experience of Hypers, I played 100 or so about a year ago with a very small ROI (1% I think). They were very swingy and bad beats galore but there were also many bad players so it has it's advantages. There's still a bit of play at the start of a tourney. Try not to go broke early on and let others make mistakes. Play a shoving game late on and let others play against each other. There are many that just shove from the start of these but you can play off a flop if your any way decent.

Hopefully someone else can input and as I say, what works for me, may not work for you.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Aug 25, 2013, 01:03 AM
(#17)
BooRay199's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 18
Hi, I'm reporting in with my results Although they are not good. I think playing after work and late at night is not very best idea since when tired I get bored and then I make some poor calls. currently I have -7 ROI but I will continue to battle.. I might lost some more because I was trying turbos and didn't managed to get proper adaptation to it jet.

I also have a question. If I have a strong hand like trips,top 2 pairs on the flop, and it is a "draw happy" flop (I dont know how you call it) is it ok to go all if I am ahead. Because 90% of the time I went all in before river I was ahead, but I sucked out to someone hitting a draw. Actualy I want to ask, If I am ahead on the flop and guy pushes all-in, should I call? There I think ICM would come handy if I am right..
I lost so many SNGs by getting in better and coming out loser, that I got a bit frustrated at some point. Trying not to think about it and waiting for good luck to come back, but then I get doubts about my play.

results


I dont know why I cant put in a thumbnail, try this link: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/s99c.jpg

Thanks and good luck!

Last edited by BooRay199; Sun Aug 25, 2013 at 01:05 AM.. Reason: no thumnail picture
 
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Sun Aug 25, 2013, 06:03 AM
(#18)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Looking at those stats I notice there is a lot of 10th and 9th places - don't go broke early in a STT.

Play a really tight game at the start and only play premiums in position. If you speculate then always know what the nuts are and don't chase if you miss. I can refer this point also to your trips.

I haven't watched this but give Spacegravy's video a watch. I think many of your points can be addressed in this. Bare in mind these are $16 and the skill level of his opponents will be a bit higher.


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