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Fit or fold poker question

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Fit or fold poker question - Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:14 AM
(#1)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I've only recently come across this term. It's when you limp pre flop, call a raise and then fold the flop to a continuation bet. I use Notecaddy software which awards players who play this a badge of distinction. I myself get this badge at times because the badge kicks in after just one occurrence so if I do it just once then I see the badge to my name.

My question: Is it a leak? If notecaddy awards a badge then it is a leak but I don't have the badge overall, just occasionally.

When the blinds are low in a STT I like to set mine. I do raise mid pocket pairs but I also limp and this is where my badge comes in. Should I just raise every time? But if I raise every time and someone re-raises then it inflates a pot that I want to keep under control. I don't want to go broke so early in a tournament with a hand like 99.

Any thoughts?


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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:22 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Hey Oval!

Are you open-limping or limping behind... it may be due to open-limping. If I'm first to act, I'm raising or folding. Yes, it will create some larger pots, but it'll give me the initiative in the hand and keep me from playing passively.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:27 AM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
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I love the ISO badge, as it gives me an indication of an obvious way to exploit an opponent. If someone limps pre-flop, calls a raise out of position, and then usually folds on the flop, then I will iso-raise them very often, sometimes with total air.
And yes, it IS a leak, to limp-call-fold. If you're going to enter a pot, do so with a raise. If your hand is not strong enough to raise in your position, just fold.

Dusty Schmidt once described limp-callers as people who are walking down the street with holes in their pockets, allowing money to fall out. Your job as a TAG is pick up that money, and you do it by isolating the limper and betting the flop. Easy game.

I'm very tight in early position, but you'd have to pay me to limp 99. It's a top 5% hand! Raise it up and be the player dictating the action, not the one giving chips away!


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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:43 AM
(#4)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hey Oval!

Are you open-limping or limping behind... it may be due to open-limping. If I'm first to act, I'm raising or folding. Yes, it will create some larger pots, but it'll give me the initiative in the hand and keep me from playing passively.

John (JWK24)

Hands like 99, I'll limp if there are a few in the pot already. If it then gets raised behind me I'll call a raise if I have set mining odds and not 3 bet. I don't want to inflate pots with a marginal hand. As an example:

3 players limp when the blinds are 10/20, I also limp. Player to act after me raises to 60, the limpers behind me either call or fold. I also call. Flop comes AT5, I check fold.

In a similar scenario, 3 players limp and I raise to 120, player behind me either calls or re-raises. I'll fold to a 3 bet or re-shove for my tournament life. Flop still comes AT5 and I haven't a clue where I stand in the hand because at micro stakes, villains love any A and hands like JTs.

In the latter case I think this is spewing chips so isn't it much better to limp call because the times we do hit our sets we will usually get paid off.

I do speak only for tournaments, STT and MTTs. I can see the disadvantages of Fit or Folding in a cash game.

Arty, I love Notecaddy (especially the scatter graph) and I'm working through on another site for a free Notecaddy Edge package. I could set up my own badges but it's a lot of work and I've only created one of my own.


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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:58 AM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Hey Ovalman


The conventional wisdom for STTs is that we're supposed to play tight and conserve chips for push-fold mode, but at the regular speed lower stakes, there's so many loose passives, when the TAGS play tight the table's basically short-handed. So I've always played a lot of speculative hands at the $1.50 and $3.50 levels, and I could swear that's more EV, although I'm sure that's probably earned me a fish badge in somebody's note-caddy

You play really well Ovalman, so if you're doing it, it must be +EV versus the opponent pool you play - you're winrate's not too shabby if I recall


PS Do you use SNG Wizard? I just downloaded the 30-day trial, and it's been a real eye-opener - I think I like it a lot ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 11:04 AM..
 
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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 11:05 AM
(#6)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Hey Ovalman

The conventional wisdom for STTs is that we're supposed to play tight and conserve chips for push-fold mode. But at the regular speed lower stakes, there's so many loose passives, when the TAGS play tight the table's basically short-handed, so I play a lot of speculative hands, and I could swear that's more EV although I'm sure that's probably earned me a fish badge in somebody's note-caddy

You play really well Ovalman, so if you're doing it, it must be +EV versus the opponent pool you play - you're winrate's not too shabby if I recall
I do OK at micro stakes but it could be a leak higher up. One thing I'll say that by playing tight and conservative is that in later stages of a STT especially your bets get respect. 99 is a definite raising/ shoving hand when we get short handed and close to the bubble but set mining is definitely more profitable when the blinds are low.

As I say I do earn this badge myself sometimes and I don't like it. I see it as a weakness but my overall stats don't show this badge because I don't always play like this.

I also one size fits all is not correct in poker because if everyone played the same way then the game would become predictable and monotonous but player like Arty WILL exploit this on me if he see's it.


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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 11:14 AM
(#7)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
This didn't earn me a badge but I feel it's a fit or fold spot.

OK Villain hit a monster but I think this is an EV play in the long run.

My call on the flop was based that opponents to act after me would call behind and give me 11/1 for 1 card. Turn was an easy call and I'm going broke on the river if an 8 shows.



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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
Hands like 99, I'll limp if there are a few in the pot already. If it then gets raised behind me I'll call a raise if I have set mining odds and not 3 bet. I don't want to inflate pots with a marginal hand.
Hey Oval!

If you're OOP and call a raise, you need to be ready to fire at basically ANY flop. This allows for two things. 1) it gives you a chance to rep hitting the board and maybe take the pot down 2) it sets a limit that you can lose in the hand, because if you get raised/called, then you can easily get off the hand if it doesn't improve.

I do agree with it that calling a raise OOP, then check/folding IS a leak.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 11:27 AM
(#9)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hey Oval!

If you're OOP and call a raise, you need to be ready to fire at basically ANY flop. This allows for two things. 1) it gives you a chance to rep hitting the board and maybe take the pot down 2) it sets a limit that you can lose in the hand, because if you get raised/called, then you can easily get off the hand if it doesn't improve.

I do agree with it that calling a raise OOP, then check/folding IS a leak.

John (JWK24)
6 in the pot then it's highly likely someone has me beat here. Villain with QQ is 47%VPiP and 20% PFR so I don't respect anything he has and certainly don't put him on QQ. At micro stakes Qx hands are very common and why I didn't want to take the lead here. Higher blinds and a better read at the table I will. I called the flop and turn because I had odds and folded an easy river. If I hit an 8 on the flop, turn or river, then I want to get my chips in.

This is the $2,500 GTD for a $1.10 buy in playing atm but it's a fit or fold spot. I'd have folded the flop if I wasn't getting priced in.

If I raise in this spot then I've at least 1 caller (regardless of the QQ), if an overcard comes on the turn then I really haven't a clue where I stand in this hand and have spewed a lot more chips than I actually did.


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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:08 PM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
I do OK at micro stakes but it could be a leak higher up. One thing I'll say that by playing tight and conservative is that in later stages of a STT especially your bets get respect. 99 is a definite raising/ shoving hand when we get short handed and close to the bubble but set mining is definitely more profitable when the blinds are low.

As I say I do earn this badge myself sometimes and I don't like it. I see it as a weakness but my overall stats don't show this badge because I don't always play like this.

I also one size fits all is not correct in poker because if everyone played the same way then the game would become predictable and monotonous but player like Arty WILL exploit this on me if he see's it.

I remember when 19Honu64 used to post hands from $7 STTs there were way fewer loose passives at that level. So if his hands were typical of the player pool at that stake, then yeah limping in to set-mine would be a big leak if it would be more likely to be met with an iso raise or a squeeze. I would imagine though if that happened more often to you, then you wouldn't be limping any more, so probably it's not?

Also, at the lower stakes, are you finding that people don't maybe as often fold TPTK to a reraise, so that it's easier to get paid off with a set? That might be another difference?

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 03:16 PM..
 
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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:46 PM
(#11)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
I remember when 19Honu64 used to post hands from $7 STTs there were way fewer loose passives at that level. So if his hands were typical of the player pool at that stake, then yeah limping in to set-mine would be a big leak if it would be more likely to be met with an iso raise or a squeeze. I would imagine though if that happened more often to you, then you wouldn't be limping any more, so probably it's not?

Also, at the lower stakes, are you finding that people don't maybe as often fold TPTK to a reraise, so that it's easier to get paid off with a set? That might be another difference?

I'm making my points because I want feed back and want to fix my problems. I've gave my answers as to how I see thinking at Micro's. It may actually be a +EV play but when faced against better opponents but as you say Sam it may well be a problem.

I do understand micro's but don't understand higher. I want to be higher obviously


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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:23 PM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
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These videos got released so long ago, that it's been a while since I've watched them - probably it's the same for you?




Not sure if there were any spots in the videos that actually show Spacegravy limping in with 22-88 though, to show how he would deal with a reraise or play post-flop. But like yeah I guess there's lots of different ways to play.

Something I remember from the vid when he was reviewing 19Honu64's hands was that he was ranging and going for thin value. And mostly he saved his chips up for push/fold, because he plays NL turbos.

Oh, and also, with 19Honu64's hands - he played regular speed, and there would still be so many people left at the tables even when the blinds got high, because everybody was playing so tight. So it was seeming like push/fold was a much bigger part of the game at the higher levels? That was why I brought up SNG Wizard, although I forgot to mention why that was And that's why I downloaded the trial too - because I was thinking it might be important to study ICM for the $7 STTs? I don't know ...

Have you taken any shots at the $7 tables? Any tips you can share?

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 04:26 PM..
 
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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:38 PM
(#13)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
It may be I've regressed but I feel so much stronger.

I was a $10 reg on Betfair (Pokerchamps) with a 17% ROI but I played 1 table at a time and only played 1 decent player which had me read inside out.

Unfortunately on Stars I find many decent players. I'm an OK player but I do struggle at times like now understanding concepts that will add or detract from my ROI. I want to progress but not at the detriment on my game or ROI.

I've had a fit or fold attitude which works but I need to know if it's the right decision. I will adapt a more raising game but my do my points earlier count?

Very happy with any discussion as it makes you think more about the game.


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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 06:24 PM
(#14)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
There's nothing really wrong with playing fit-or-fold post-flop (indeed I recommend beginners play like that at 2NL FR) but I think you're getting confused because of the naming of that NoteCaddy badge. You only get the ISO badge if you limp in, call a raise, and then fold on the flop.
It's obviously fine to call raises and go set-mining, and just fold when you miss the flop. It's a leak, however, to routinely limp in (with any hand), call a raise out of position and then fold to a c-bet. If you never limp in, then you won't get the badge and you won't be leaking chips like the usual limp-call-check-fold merchants.
If you want to instantly improve your bottom line, play much tighter in earlier position (folding very often) and only call raises when you have good implied odds and (preferably) the button. When you see flops in position, you don't always have to fold when you miss, because you can steal the pot if the PFR checks, or you can float the flop and steal the pot on the turn. None of these plays are open to you if you limp in early position. The long and the short of it is that players that open limp are losing players, so if you want to make money, DON'T LIMP!


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Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 06:28 PM..
 
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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 08:37 PM
(#15)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
As is often the case I find myself agreeing with what Arty just wrote. I was surprised that there was some suggestion that fit or fold with low pocket pairs in limp/call pots wasn't a +EV play. If you are playing in games with lots of limps or lots of calling rather than raising it cannot be wrong to call with small pairs looking to fit fold if we have the right implied odds and believe that we would get paid from eg overpairs and TPTK.

I think you have to bear in mind that even if notecaddy tags you as something that can be exploited by opponents, it does not mean that either your opponents have notecaddy or are bright enough to realise that fit or fold players can be exploited and how to do so.
I am a big advocate of playing in an exploitable way if players are not going to exploit me.
 
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Sun Aug 18, 2013, 09:10 PM
(#16)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post

Unfortunately on Stars I find many decent players. I'm an OK player but I do struggle at times like now understanding concepts that will add or detract from my ROI. I want to progress but not at the detriment on my game or ROI.

I've had a fit or fold attitude which works but I need to know if it's the right decision. I will adapt a more raising game but my do my points earlier count?

One of the nice things about moving to cash games is that there's not so many different variants like there are with SNGs - like people either play full-ring or 6-max, and regular tables or Zoom? And there's so many PSO trainers and hand analyzers, and posters who play 6-max Zoom specifically, that there's never a shortage of learning materials available for when I need help - which is often

With SNGs, it was so much harder - I think you were the only other person who played full-ring STTs at the same time as me, but they were FL. And spacegravy plays STTs, but he plays turbos.


I never really figured out the best way to learn how to adapt to a higher stake of STTs, because I tried moving up a level when I was still playing them and it didn't go well. Then I switched to cash, and then my computer broke, and when I went back, my STT play had improved - so like, the key to me learning how to play the higher level profitably apparently turned out to be 6-max zoom vids? Maybe if I keep watching 6-max zoom vids, I'll be able to play $7 STTs? lol I don't know ..

It's nice having a second type of game to play on the side to cash, and ICM looks like a really interesting and important area, so I thought it'd be fun to learn more? So that's the plan with that I guess - will see how things go ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 09:52 PM..
 

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