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Welcome to sickland - Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:14 AM
(#1)
wilcogold's Avatar
Since: May 2013
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Mon Aug 19, 2013, 12:04 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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The thing to look at here is that two of the hands were played very badly.

The first one is just a cooler.

The second one, the min-raise priced in the opp preflop (a big mistake and why I never min-raise). When the opp hits top pair, plenty of opps aren't going away. Next time, make a standard raise preflop.

Third hand, either raise or fold this preflop. Limping A/rag is nothing but trouble. Also, on the flop, with this many players in the hand, I cannot check the flop. I must bet this for value and to try to lower the number of opps. The opp got there on the river by A7 not betting, so it's 100% A7's fault that they lost. When a player has the best hand and doesn't bet enough to price out the opp drawing and loses... it's HIS OWN FAULT that the hand is lost.

John (JWK24)


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Mon Aug 19, 2013, 12:17 PM
(#3)
wilcogold's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 69
Quote:
The first one is just a cooler.
I would argue it is not just a cooler. it would be a cooler for him if the turn didn't come, this is one step further. (hence why I posted it here)

Quote:
The second one, the min-raise priced in the opp preflop (a big mistake and why I never min-raise). When the opp hits top pair, plenty of opps aren't going away. Next time, make a standard raise preflop.
There are a ton of good reasons to make your opens smaller the closer you are to the button (and esp. on the button): you keep effective stacks deeper for postflop play by opening smaller which utilizes your position, you can defend against 3bets more effectively by leaving room to either call or 4bet small, you encourage people to play pots with you when you have position on them, etc. The last thing happened here and this beat has nothing to do with the small bet. As I got the money in good you should be happy he hit the queen and stuck to it, rather than criticizing the sizing.
Is this "played very badly"?

Quote:
Third hand, either raise or fold this preflop. Limping A/rag is nothing but trouble. Also, on the flop, with this many players in the hand, I cannot check the flop. I must bet this for value and to try to lower the number of opps. The opp got there on the river by A7 not betting, so it's 100% A7's fault that they lost. When a player has the best hand and doesn't bet enough to price out the opp drawing and loses... it's HIS OWN FAULT that the hand is lost.
Sure I agree this hand was actually played suboptimal, but in case of this hand I don't think I could have folded at any point. From reading on this forum I lived under the impression that slowplaying a boat was at least not a terrible play.


Or am I being too subjective here?

Last edited by wilcogold; Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:35 PM..
 
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Mon Aug 19, 2013, 12:33 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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In the second hand, the opp made the right play preflop and then the wrong play on the flop. When I'm playing hands, I want to make the opps make the wrong play on EVERY street. Just because I make a good play on one street doesn't mean that I play the hand well.. it needs to be done on every street.

Min-raises do save chips, but if I give the opp the right odds by making too small of a bet, it's my own fault if I keep them in the hand and giving them the correct odds.

The only time that I want to slowplay a hand is IF there is not a single card in the deck that can beat me. With this many opps in the hand, someone most likely has the other ace. Due to this, as long as their kicker is over a 7 (very easily the case), I cannot slowplay, as I must bet both for value and to price out the opp's draw. Slowplaying hands, especially online, is just asking to get beat. Slowplaying non-nut hands falls into 'fancy play syndrome' and is a problem.

John (JWK24)


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Mon Aug 19, 2013, 12:57 PM
(#5)
wilcogold's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 69
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In the second hand, the opp made the right play preflop and then the wrong play on the flop. When I'm playing hands, I want to make the opps make the wrong play on EVERY street. Just because I make a good play on one street doesn't mean that I play the hand well.. it needs to be done on every street.

Min-raises do save chips, but if I give the opp the right odds by making too small of a bet, it's my own fault if I keep them in the hand and giving them the correct odds.
I think calling a minraise with Q9o OOP is a mistake still. What is he hoping to hit? Well top pair it seems, which he did. He wouldn't be able to do that if I 3x'd it pre, which is the sole reason I minraised, to get action from worse while in position.

Quote:
The only time that I want to slowplay a hand is IF there is not a single card in the deck that can beat me. With this many opps in the hand, someone most likely has the other ace. Due to this, as long as their kicker is over a 7 (very easily the case), I cannot slowplay, as I must bet both for value and to price out the opp's draw. Slowplaying hands, especially online, is just asking to get beat. Slowplaying non-nut hands falls into 'fancy play syndrome' and is a problem.
Say you hold kings in position and the flops comes K44 multiway, you dont even think about slowplaying against someone potting it because someone can hold fours? However, I'm beginning to agree I should fold this pre, although overlimped deep is not as bad as openlimping to me.

thanks for your time!
 
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Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:08 PM
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To call the min raise preflop with Q9o, I need to put 300 into a pot that will be 1k (30%). As long as the opp than min-raised pre was playing over 11VPIP, it's a good call, as I have the equity to do so.

Now.. if a raise to 600 is made, then Q9 has to call 500 into 1400 (35.7%). Now the opp has to be at 24VPIP to make Q9o playable.
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With full houses, I'm not worried about quads... if they have it, so be it. In your K44 scenario, if I don't look at quad 4's, then I DO have the nuts, so I would check the flop. I'm not checking both the flop and turn though, as I need to make a standard value bet on one of the two streets.

John (JWK24)


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