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Stealing less blinds=Bigger Hourly?

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Stealing less blinds=Bigger Hourly? - Mon Aug 19, 2013, 05:46 PM
(#1)
morduk666's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 84
I have this question nagging me for too long:

When we play zoom poker is it possible that stealing less blinds could mean more hands per hour which could come up as bigger hourly rate? Why not? Any way to show the solution mathematically?
 
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Mon Aug 19, 2013, 06:10 PM
(#2)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
No since we would play more hands on the blinds, that is actually less profitable.
Our expected BB/100 on the blinds is negative, so it doesn't makes sense to fold a lot from Button, CO, since you will get more hands dealt on the blinds.
Stealing is profitable when executed properly, and on the right villains.

Last edited by GamblingProp; Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:12 PM..
 
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Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:24 PM
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Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
Not as simple as an easy 'no'. If your stealing from button and cutoff was marginally profitable and playing value hands was largely profitable then you could find that folding the steals means the average winnings from button and cutoff could increase. It would be quite easy to work out with HoldemManager etc plus some approximation for increased hands through less stealing. Buuuuut I am not interested as stealing is profitable and seems to be more profitable in the zoom games I play. Passing up this would not feel right and I am sure would not be more profitable to pass this up.
Also say the above was true for you, if your opponents come to know you are never stealing from button and cut off then you probably win less from your value hands.
Bottom line if stealing is profitable I do not think it is worth considering this.
 
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Tue Aug 20, 2013, 12:16 AM
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ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by morduk666 View Post
I have this question nagging me for too long:

When we play zoom poker is it possible that stealing less blinds...
Sorry for the redacted quote. Just wanted to flip this to your, defence of your own blinds? Then consider oop your range to defend and how wide you think the stealer is?

At micro stakes stealing is profitable and defending less so. If the blinds take some wild line you have a fold button. At higher micros/low stakes you will be owned unless you can defend your blinds in some way. So now you are the stealer involved in a 3b or 4b pot pre and then start to lose money post flop.

So my 2 cents is a respectful swings and round-a-bouts.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:20 AM..
 
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Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:32 AM
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mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Profess Awe View Post
Also say the above was true for you, if your opponents come to know you are never stealing from button and cut off then you probably win less from your value hands.
This if we have super nit stats we don't get paid by good players so i like my super wide CO and BU opens, plus we can just outplay alot of players when we have position.
 
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Tue Aug 20, 2013, 02:55 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
If you just want to be dealt more hands per hour, fold everything but aces. If you want to maximise your earnings, play more hands in position and SEE MORE FLOPS. Post-flop is where the bulk of your value comes from. Folding doesn't make money.


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Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:39 PM
(#7)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
If you just want to be dealt more hands per hour, fold everything but aces. If you want to maximise your earnings, play more hands in position and SEE MORE FLOPS. Post-flop is where the bulk of your value comes from. Folding doesn't make money.

Folding can save you money...


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed Aug 21, 2013, 05:23 PM
(#8)
morduk666's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
If you just want to be dealt more hands per hour, fold everything but aces.
I should've thought that. Waiting for others to fold is the trial for my patience. If it's not a secret what's the winrate from BU at your game guys? Mine is 23bb/100 at nl2 and 17bb/100 at nl5 both on pfr 15. Have a feeling it could be charged a bit

Last edited by morduk666; Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 05:32 PM..
 
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Wed Aug 21, 2013, 05:39 PM
(#9)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
I don't have my tracker open and I don't play much zoom, but I recall my winrates on the button and in the cutoff are a fair bit higher than yours. (I do a LOT of stealing).

EDIT: There are some positional winrate figures for 2NL FR on my blog. At 6-max, my winrates are much higher. I even win money in the SB, thanks to my steal success rate.


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Wed Aug 21, 2013, 05:46 PM
(#10)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
Folding can save you money...
Totally agree

Lots of players all they think about is how much more money they can make and not how much money they can also lose and most of them lose...lol

Just like not cashing profit and opening another table. They say you'd be losing on bigger profit and forget you could be losing your entire profit.

This could definitely be a reason why so many players are stuck at 2nl and can't move up or are continuously losing and think that there's only one way to play poker.

There's no need to play more hands or steal more blinds or even defend more your blinds. You just need to know when to do it and against who to do it.

The main goal is to be in profit and if you are, you're better than probably 80% of all players. All you need to do, is adjust a bit here and there to increase your BB/100 every month or 2.

Just my 2 cents
 
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Wed Aug 21, 2013, 08:10 PM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Kind of an interesting strategy question to wonder about - it's one I've thought about in the past, so like ...

There are a couple of regs who have moved up stakes around the same times as me, who I know are profitable, who have never been too crazy about stealing blinds or defending them. And I've noticed their blinds-stealing rates increasing as we've moved up stakes. And their blinds-stealing rates are still on the low end compared to the rest of the pool, but you'd tend to think that if they could have kept their play the same as they moved up stakes, they would have? So like, wouldn't that seem to suggest that they've found it more profitable to increase their blind stealing?

And then, if you agree that it's more EV to play a hand like JTs in position than a hand like AKo out of position, then like maybe that too would be evidence that stealing blinds rather than just playing premium hands might be more EV?


On the other hand, maybe some ways maintaining a lower blind rate might actually allow a player to have a higher per hour win rate might be if it allows the person to play more tables, or to play longer, if playing stronger hands is leading to less tricky post-flop situations than playing hands like ... J9o, K3s, 46s, etc?

And then, I actually didn't used to steal blinds or cbet at 2nl, and my win-rate was higher than when I tried stealing blinds and c-betting. BUT that was because I wasn't able to do those things successfully, so they were less EV. A couple of months ago I dropped back down to 5nl after being at 10nl for a while and my winrate was about twice as high as it used to be with similar variance, so I would imagine if I were to drop back down to 2nl and steal blinds and c-bet now that I know how, my winrate would be higher than before when I wasn't doing those things?

Like, I guess my theory would be that IF in playing the same amount of tables, a person's winrate/hr is actually higher when not stealing blinds, that's maybe a sign that the person isn't stealing blinds effectively? But like yeah, maybe if by not stealing blinds a person can play more tables, then maybe that's different, I don't know ...


Maybe the biggest benefit to stealing blinds is that you're in position, which is such a big advantage?

I don't know ... just some random thoughts. Should get back to the tables now

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 08:14 PM..
 
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Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:38 AM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morduk666 View Post
When we play zoom poker is it possible that stealing less blinds could mean more hands per hour
Oh, I forgot - I've got a winrate/hr for 2nl for not stealing blinds (4-tables). It's from the 6-max challenge last year, where I was trying to get up to 5nl as fast as I could and didn't know we were supposed try and play the way we're supposed to, even if we didn't do it well

The stat 'My c/hour' is showing as $1.87? I didn't bother to include the photo of it, but here are my stats for those hands and I was running WAY above EV, so probably you have to divide that rate in 2. Also, you can see in my stats how terrible my c-betting was last September - I'm sure for somebody who stole blinds and was c-betting effectively, they could manage a much higher winrate/hr because people who have dropped back down to 2nl for challenges seem to be pulling in winrates of about 20bb/100, and my all-EV adjusted was only 7bb/100.

(click to see a larger copy)



Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 07:41 AM..
 

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