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10nl 6m zoom: AKs 4-bet multiway pot vs unknowns, 234 flop - pre-flop and flop lines?

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10nl 6m zoom: AKs 4-bet multiway pot vs unknowns, 234 flop - pre-flop and flop lines? - Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:36 PM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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The 2 villains in the blinds were 1-tablers ... was my pre-flop and flop play fine, or any suggestions/ideas for improvement?


Here's the villains' HUD stats (click to enlarge):






Thanks!
 
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Wed Aug 21, 2013, 05:50 AM
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geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi TrustySam,

Tricky spot!
I think preflop Call>Raise>Fold
I think calling has some more merits over 5betting because our hand is strong and can play well post flop multiway especially that we are suited. Also this has to do with the 4bet sizing from V2 and the flat call from V3 which gives us good odds to call and we hate to be running into Aces here.
It's hard to put these guys on a range when they are unknowns; but the 4bet sizing is basically a click back which could mean two things: Either they are super strong and have AA or they are doing that with hands they perceive to be strong but are afraid to put too much money in the pot because they are a weak player. I would take out KK/QQ and AK from their range because with those hands I think they would go on a bigger 4bet sizing (I'm trying to think in the way villain might be thinking) so I think they could have something like { AA, JJ-77, AQ/AJ/AT, KQ/KJ } when V3 flat calls we can safely remove AA/KK from their range so they would be sitting on { QQ-22, AK/AQ/AJ } more inclined to put them on QQ-TT and AK

When V2 checks the flop, they could be giving up with KQ/KJ and random hands that missed or they are planning to x/c with Ax hands and maybe x/r with AA - so taking out JJ-77

When V3 takes over the lead its almost certain they have a PP; but their bet sizing is really weird because its less than half pot and they are not protecting their hand especially when Ax hands are likely to call behind.

I think I would call the flop here because we have an Ace and a King we can improve to and a 5 to give us a wheel and if they are doing this with Ax hands then we are probably good anyways. I'd call and fold to a shove from V2 ofcourse.
 
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Wed Aug 21, 2013, 05:39 PM
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Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
How can we put v3 on such a narrow range? I wouldnt call wider than that because were not closing the action but im sure some players will flat a ton of suited connectors trying to crack big pairs.
 
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Wed Aug 21, 2013, 07:09 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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I've been in one of those downswings where it seems like I'm getting reraised every couple of hands, and am having to fold a lot - and the reraises have seemed to be for value because a lot of them have been coming from regs with AFs of 0% and 3-bet%s of 1%, etc.

But then I got this hand where I got to see showdown, and it turned out I folded the best hand on the flop (A-high, K-kicker), which had me second-guessing myself, wondering if I'm folding too much and not bluff-catching enough. Not necessarily with this hand, because I think these two villains in the blinds were very extreme cases. But I did feel like I missed some signs that they weren't as strong as I gave them credit for being, so with this hand too I was hoping to hear other peoples ranging estimates, which I was sure would be wider than mine


My ranging estimates of the villains on the flop:

sb - AA
bb - 22-66

Yikes! Too tight!!

sb had K6s
bb had AQo





Thanks everybody - big help!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 07:11 PM..
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:03 AM
(#5)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
How can we put v3 on such a narrow range? I wouldnt call wider than that because were not closing the action but im sure some players will flat a ton of suited connectors trying to crack big pairs.
Hi mike, they sure can call with SCs or any cards they think are good to play but we can't assume that without information so I treated the BB as a standard average player

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
I've been in one of those downswings where it seems like I'm getting reraised every couple of hands, and am having to fold a lot - and the reraises have seemed to be for value because a lot of them have been coming from regs with AFs of 0% and 3-bet%s of 1%, etc.
What's your Fold to 3bet stat?
Always good to be folding to opponents with 3bets of 1% - I'd fold KK too. But got to make sure we have significant hands on villain before we do

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
My ranging estimates of the villains on the flop:

sb - AA
bb - 22-66

Yikes! Too tight!!

sb had K6s
bb had AQo
Yea, that's definitely a tight range estimate. I mean it's very easy to put the SB on AA because your brain has a way to correlate patterns; and we have all seen the min 4bet with AA and whenever we run into them we relate this bad feeling with the min-raise pattern and we start thinking with our feelings. Surely AA can be in their range but also their are more hands that they can do that with. Obviously K6s would not be part of anyone's ranging
Badly played from both villains imo.

Last edited by geoVARTA; Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 04:13 AM..
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:37 AM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Either they are super strong and have AA or they are doing that with hands they perceive to be strong but are afraid to put too much money in the pot because they are a weak player. I would take out KK/QQ and AK from their range because with those hands I think they would go on a bigger 4bet sizing (I'm trying to think in the way villain might be thinking) so I think they could have something like { AA, JJ-77, AQ/AJ/AT, KQ/KJ }
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
when V3 flat calls we can safely remove AA/KK from their range so they would be sitting on { QQ-22, AK/AQ/AJ }
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
When V2 checks the flop, they could be giving up with KQ/KJ and random hands that missed or they are planning to x/c with Ax hands and maybe x/r with AA
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
When V3 takes over the lead ... their bet sizing is really weird because its less than half pot and they are not protecting their hand especially when Ax hands are likely to call behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
What's your Fold to 3bet stat?
Always good to be folding to opponents with 3bets of 1% - I'd fold KK too. But got to make sure we have significant hands on villain before we do

Yea, that's definitely a tight range estimate. I mean it's very easy to put the SB on AA because your brain has a way to correlate patterns; and we have all seen the min 4bet with AA and whenever we run into them we relate this bad feeling with the min-raise pattern and we start thinking with our feelings. Surely AA can be in their range but also their are more hands that they can do that with. Obviously K6s would not be part of anyone's ranging
Badly played from both villains imo.

Hey Geo

I meant to come back this morning and pick out the specific tells you spotted so I'd have them to go over for reference later

Your ranging was pretty accurate - you did include the KQ/KJ type hands, which versus utg and mp opens are going to tend to be bluffs a fair amount of the time. And that's something I totally didn't think about, although TommyGun's mentioned that happening at higher levels ... when somebody's squeezed from the button.

The more detailed ranging was exactly what I was hoping to get out of HA, because once I saw the ending I was having a hard time going back and trying to redo the hand with fresh eyes, so that's awesome - helps a lot!!

My fold to 3-bet stat is very standard, although my blinds steal stats tend to be a bit on the high side. So I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of the tighter regs have actually pulled a fast one on me, and 3-bet bluffed me. I think they're all capable of that. But my hands haven't been so hot either most of the time, so ... hopefully I didn't fold anything too great


Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 07:39 AM..
 

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