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KK versus 3bet 200bb deep

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KK versus 3bet 200bb deep - Wed Aug 21, 2013, 06:02 PM
(#1)
morduk666's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 84


20/16 3bet 8(400 hands). From his betsizing it looks like he's not scared of going pre. Honestly I wanted to go only for setmining with this. Not sure if calling even the flop c-bet would be correct.
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:43 AM
(#2)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
I can't fold there even when I wan't to fold my finger pushes call 20/16/8 doesn't look as nity, and you are loosing just to AA or JJ, I call OTR and I don't mind to shove PF if it's needed . I just can't understand how could you range him as just AA? and I don't understand setmining KK playing them as 22 or 33, it's a monster

Last edited by Shichi-77; Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 01:46 AM..
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:31 AM
(#3)
PokerIggy's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 214
This hand looks somehow familiar. Was it against me? I actually don't know, but it really looks familiar.

Edit: Oh no, I don't think so. That PF raise is a lot bigger than how I would usually play. I think if you play enough you will see enough flops that look the same.

Last edited by PokerIggy; Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 03:36 AM..
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:12 AM
(#4)
morduk666's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shichi-77 View Post
I can't fold there even when I wan't to fold my finger pushes call 20/16/8 doesn't look as nity, and you are loosing just to AA or JJ, I call OTR and I don't mind to shove PF if it's needed . I just can't understand how could you range him as just AA? and I don't understand setmining KK playing them as 22 or 33, it's a monster
If his range is JJ+ then I have the right price, but I don't want to be so optimistic. Im in UTG and he's peppering his bets on me like its no big deal. Betsizing looks like a plan for commitment too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIggy View Post
This hand looks somehow familiar. Was it against me? I actually don't know, but it really looks familiar.

Edit: Oh no, I don't think so. That PF raise is a lot bigger than how I would usually play. I think if you play enough you will see enough flops that look the same.
Great..Now regs will start to exploit me more

Last edited by morduk666; Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 04:14 AM..
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:41 AM
(#5)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
4b get it in pre. As played snap call river.
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:42 AM
(#6)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi morduk666,

If there was a :puke: smiley, I would have probably used it here!

It sux that we have KK when V2 makes his 3bet so big; specifically because we are both deep stacked.
I agree that they want to get a lot of money into the pot and when they raise an UTG open that big then they are doing this with 100% value: AA/KK/QQ - maybe sometimes not even QQ ??? 20/16 3bet 8% ; this guy knows what they are doing! Against AA/KK/QQ we are even money - I'm not sure there is much benefit in 4betting here and getting shoved on with AA. Although deepstacked 3betting happens lighter, I think it's not the case with that sizing and those positions.

I'd call, and see a flop. If we are set mining then we should be folding the flop bet (which is also on the big side) but maybe we can take another line if we might think they can have QQ to try and control the action OTR by raising the flop bet small and folding to a shove??

I will keep this hand open as I'm not too comfortable playing deepstack poker and I'll keep it for someone with more experience in deepstacks to evaluate.

Interesting spot!
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 05:24 AM
(#7)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
I'll chime in, but leave the thread open as well

I think we are giving the villain too much respect here and thus too narrow a pf range. I know that I would be 3-betting in this spot with at least 22, 33, 44, QQ, KK, AA an AK; yet, my 3b% is only half of his. Plus, at 5NL we still see plenty of weird stuff, even from regs. I would 4-bet this hand 100% of the time and be happy getting all in preflop.

As played, with the way the board runs out, I would call on the river. 66 seems unlikely with the pf 3-bet. 10x also seems like an unlikley 3-bet hand especially with three of them on the board. That leaves a set of Js which is possible and AA. Yet, he would be taking the same line presumably with QQ, KK and I believe AK.

AK is a bit strange, but 3-betting pf makes sense. C-betting the flop with two overs and a gutshot makes seems standard. By that time the pot has grown so much that barreling the turn and river hoping to get you to fold a smaller pair or another AK.

With AA and KK on microstakes tables, especially 6-max, I think we can and should be raising for value, as well as to protect our hand, every chance we get preflop, regardless of how deep we are.

GL and the tables!

Roland GTX
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:14 AM
(#8)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Don't you think there might be AJ also?
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:51 AM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Do you have AF and w$sd stats for the villain?

That 3-bet sizing, and river shove makes it look like the villain's got AA - although I said the same thing with my hand for 10nl and the villain had K6s, so ... my ranging might not be so hot lol

Although, at 5nl the regs all play so face up - if the villain's AF is less than 2, and the w$sd is higher than like maybe 65% ... anybody else who would consider folding the river?

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 08:06 AM..
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:29 AM
(#10)
flight2night's Avatar
Since: Jun 2013
Posts: 59
i agree with rolandgtx I'm raising large preflop here and over the top post flop and I 'm never folding to that river bet if my line mirrors yours. ranging the villain is a little tougher I put them on JJ,QQ,KK AA 90 percent of the time but 66 and AK are definitely in range...almost any of his holdings are behind and the agg stand means he's paying off...could also be a 3street bluff play that got out of control but unlikely with his stats although I had it happen a few times now .... still new to this so take it with a grain of salt as they say....but if they do have the nut then I paying the tab here 110/100 and moving on cheers F2N thx for the hand
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:45 PM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi all,

I guess I would call here. Although I'm not excited about it, his preflop sizing looks more like AK than anything else to me and this could be a board he barrels. His 8% 3b leads me to believe he's not just on AA here. Although tbh I think we will get shown AA quite a bit, but given our line, meh.

I think no one has asked a key question... what is our perceived range? 20/16/8 is probably trying to range us, and he's got 400 hands of experience to draw from (and maybe HUD stats). So how are we playing? What's our UTG opening range? If we are tight UTG, that does not bode well for our spot here as it makes it less likely that he shows up as light as AK or QQ on the river, and we should probably just let this go before stacking off... If we are playing 34/28 with a fold to 3b of < 50%, then he is going to range us wider pre, size his 3b larger, and expect us to flat him anyway fairly wide/marginal. Which means he's much more likely to take this line with QQ for pure value, and AK/AQ to pressure us of medium pocket pairs, and calling down makes a lot of sense.


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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:29 PM
(#12)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hi morduk666

I haven't read the full thread so I apologize if some of this is repetition.

First, this is a situation where having more context can help us put things in context. An 8% three-bet percentage could mean a lot of things. Does he three-bet a lot from the blinds? From the small blind specifically? Does he three-bet a lot versus under the gun opens, or button opens instead?

If you add a stat like "three-bet vs button open" to your HUD, or to a pop-up, you can answer a question like this better when facing a regular whom you have 400 hands on.

My default opinion is that calling, as opposed to four-betting, was far and away correct. If he is an 8% three-better overall, I would discount that greatly versus under the gun opens, say by 50%, and from the small blind, say by 20%. When you put those two reductions together you are looking at something like a 3% three-bet range, which is AK JJ+. This isn't a range we can four-bet so easily unless our plan is to fold to a five bet.

I prefer calling in position because I feel like I can make more money from this range with KK when I have position and a deeper stack to pot ratio. I feel like I am going to lose the least versus AA while take the rest of the range to value town. The four-bet/fold decision might make more sense, if we know he only 5bets AA and always calls JJ/QQ/AK when he faces this action from us. The problem is, if we are wrong about those tendencies, it could end disastrously.

Either way, four-bet/calling I think is out of the question here.

On the flop you have no choice. You must call, its not very close. The villain is going to be continuation betting pretty much that whole range every time.

The turn I think is also a call, but this is a function of the price we are being laid. We should not be very happy. This villain is betting 1/2 the pot on a board that doesn't afford much fold equity. No draws turned. Its conceivable a lot of AK combinations give it up here.

The river is a pretty straightforward fold in my opinion. Does this player bet QQ to this size? No. So that only really leaves JJ/AA and whatever AK combinations are available. On the turn I can see a regular being afraid of TX when they hold AA and hence sizing halfpot, I can also seem them filling up with JJ on the turn and not wanting to lose a customer. Either way then the third ten comes out both JJ and AA can now pot the river. Ace-king sure could pot the river if the guys a maniac, but why didn't it bet bigger on the turn then?

That's exclusionary to me, that ace-king could not bluff in this sizing sequence given the board. Sure ace-king could triple barrel bluff from small blind v utg on a JT5,T,T board, but not in this way. It seems quite unlikely.

I would fold and not worry too much about it. You have to be good here one third of the time and I just don't see that happening. I think you will probably win here closer to 10-15% of the time, had I to guess.
 
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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:35 PM
(#13)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
Ace-king sure could pot the river if the guys a maniac, but why didn't it bet bigger on the turn then?

That's exclusionary to me, that ace-king could not bluff in this sizing sequence given the board. Sure ace-king could triple barrel bluff from small blind v utg on a JT5,T,T board, but not in this way. It seems quite unlikely.

I would fold and not worry too much about it.
Excellent point. The sizing seems off for 3-barrel bluffing AK.

I knew you'd have a better answer than I did.


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