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2.5kGTD $1.10 Tournament - In BB with 34 BB stack.

2.5kGTD $1.10 Tournament - In BB with 34 BB stack. - Thu Aug 22, 2013, 02:37 AM
slettuce's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 221
Bit of background, villian continues to 3 bet, raise my blinds etc. so had a decent read on him.

Also, min-cashing wasn't my goal, but do you think I was "over-aggressive", at the time I felt 100% sure of my bet.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 02:47 AM
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
Yes you were something more than aggressive there, you were almost spewy.
I think you made a loose call on the flop, but on the turn I think a call is definitely the right thing to do, you could also raise to 900-1200, but surely don't like the shove.
If you had huge fold equity vs villain or you thought he had a marginal hand like 2nd, 3rd pair, a shove becomes somehow better, although still not the best move.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:01 AM
slettuce's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 221
thx man, that's why I posted it here.
In the moment I saw both flush and straight draws and that shove is soooooo "not my style".
Appreciate the "voice of reason".

Last edited by slettuce; Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 03:03 AM.. Reason: oh, I did think he was weak, but even so, too reckless on my part.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:16 PM
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,832
Hi slettuce!

With 46s in the BB, when I get two limpers in front of me, I'm more than happy to check and see a free flop.

I flop a flush draw and I'm going to check and hope to see a free turn card. However, now an opp bets 300, so I need to see if I have the right equity to call. I have 9 outs to my flush, so to the turn, from the rule of 4 and 2, my hand has 18% equity. To call, it's 300 chips into a pot that will be 1305 (23%). Since my pot equity is higher than my hand equity... I need to FOLD to this bet as I expect to lose 5% of my chips on average if I would call it.

If I saw the turn (which I would not), this gives me 3 more outs for a gutshot straight, so I have 12 outs. From the rule of 4 and 2, my hand is now worth 20%. To call, it's 300 into a pot that will be 2205 (13.6%). Since my hand equity is higher than my pot equity, I'll call the 300.

I don't want to shove here, as with the player betting both streets, they most likely have top pair, which means I'm behind. By shoving, I'm putting 4640 into a pot that will be 10885 (42.6%)... but my hand is only worth 20%! This means that I expect to lose over 20% of my chips on average by shoving, which is a huge loss, so I do NOT want to shove.

The key here is to muck to the flop bet, as I'm not getting the correct odds to call.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


6 Time Bracelet Winner

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:03 PM
slettuce's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 221
Thx John

Yes it does help. Even though I knew I was playing with fire from the start of the hand and still made the wrong decision based on "emotion" (I wanted to punish the villian for the maximum), and then actually end up winning the hand....I decided to make that my first hand for review here in PSO.

Getting confirmation from a point of view that isn't my own is very satisfying and I'm glad I posted it for review even though I was embarrassed to do so at the time, I knew I needed to put it out there just to "discipline" my mindset.

Thx again.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:10 AM
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Hi slettuce

One last thing I would consider here on your part is this: what does YOUR line look like to THEM?

You check your option pre-flop...that says "random hand" to me as an opponent. Then the flop comes and you flat call OOP,this screams flush draw. If you had a Q bigger than my Q10,or have QJ,then where is the raise? Hell,a hand like AQ or AJ you may have even raised pre-flop. So I'm discounting hands like these and thinking you're on a draw,or maybe even following along with a weaker Q or J.

On the turn we get a blanked 5...only ways this could help your hand enough to sink my Q10 is by putting you on a set or you did call the flop with a hand like Q5 or J5. Do I believe that you would call my flop bet with 55 and 2 overs on board,2 overs that fit neatly into the range that players like to limp in these $1 tournaments? Again,it's really hard to put you on having 55 here.And if you called my bet on the flop with Q5 or J5 you're bucking to be "buddy-listed". So,once again,it's hard to give you credit for having a hand that's ahead of me here.

And that's where we run into a problem...your shove here just looks to be way out of line and too much like a semi-bluff. This player has you 3.5-1 on chips so you're not going to bully them off the hand if they think you're on a draw,even a gutter combo draw.

Think about the story you've already told in a hand before you make a move like this,if the bet looks "wrong" the probability of you're getting looked up is much higher.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:34 AM
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Interesting hand. I have a different view on the flop. First, I actually don't like checking hoping for free cards. We have 2 preflop limpers in the hand, both of whom will have missed this flop quite a bit. Their pocket pairs that didn't make bottom set, suited connectors, A-rags have all airballed. Unless someone has a weak Q (QT/Q9/Q8s) or is feeling sticky with a JT type hand, they may well fold to a bet. If there were 3 or more players to get through I think checking is better, but with only 2 (or 1) limpers I feel like this is a profitable spot to semi-bluff.

After the normally aggro guy bets, I think we should call here, not fold. John showed the math that we don't have the correct immediate odds to draw at our flush, but I think we can expect enough implied odds to continue profitably. This guy probably has the weak Q or JT/J9 quite a bit, and while he may not be happy if a 3rd spade comes, we only need to pick up an additional 350 or so chips on top of the current pot to make the call good. We may get it right now from the 3rd player if he's check/calling Qx or Jx. But certainly we can expect additional action from the bettor who we already know is likely to be aggro on latter streets, and who is probably expecting us to snap at him sometime since he's been bullying us, so we will get less credit from him if we get there.

As played, the turn is a clear call imo, We have a good price to draw at our 12 outs (3 of which are totally disguised, if we back door the straight we will not get put on the nuts). Raising can be nice if we have fold equity, but again this guy is probably expecting us to snap at being pushed around, so we're getting called by Qx and probably Jx for that matter... and like Moxie said, it looks too much like a draw or move with the line we took.

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