Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

25NL FR Zoom: Non- standard line with 22

Old
Default
25NL FR Zoom: Non- standard line with 22 - Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:15 AM
(#1)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Geo and I were discussing ways of playing small pairs after I had mentioned in this thread that I would often 3b with 22. This hand is an example from earlier today on 25NL FR Zoom.

http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hand...234_9565CEF051

The limper is a Platinum star reg. I have seen a number of good players that limp-call speculative hands as a form of pot control rather than raising and being forced to fold or call a larger 3-bet. I put him on 88 or lower pairs, 89s or lower sc and A5s and lower kicker hands.

I could check pf and then fold all my missed sets on the flop. I get a free chance to flop a monster. This is the line I would take at 10NL or lower. Against good regs at higher levels, I feel this line often makes it obvious that I have flopped a set on many dry boards. When I am passive pf, then start betting/raising. I don't stack players as often here as I do at 2NL with sets.

Here I wanted to put pressure on the villain with the intention of taking down the pot on a latter street. Raising lets me rep a much stronger hand post flop. When he called my pf raise, I felt pretty confident about my range on him.

The flop is good for me. It is very wet and connects well with my repped range. I checked the flop with the intention of check-raising. When he checked behind, I was quite confident he didn't like the flop.

Check-raising the turn seemed like the best way for me to take down the pot and win some extra value out of him. I raised pf, then check-raised the turn looks very strong. None of the hands in his range, probably not even lower end straight draws are going to make for good calling hands.

If he calls or comes over the top, then I have a huge problem. Thus far, picking good spots to make moves like this has improved my profitabliitly with small pairs and it is helping lift my redline since I am playing more based on my read on the villain more than just looking at the strength of my own hand. It seems to work well at 25NL Zoom and higher where players tend to be careful AND can find the fold button.

What are your thoughts on this line?

Roland GTX
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:56 AM
(#2)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Greg, I don't think this is a 3bet situation because it was limped and not raised. We are basically, taking initiative with a hand that flops poorly and would be looking to win this with a cbet against his limp/calling range. This flop is kind of a disaster for us I think because its pretty wet and betting here will get called by a lot of his limp/calling range. Kx, Qx, Jx, Tx, 9x, 8x . So I personally would have taken a x/f line here and not a x/r because limpers tend to get sticky when they do hit a flop (you say villain is a good reg that limps - I'm not sure I can make a correlation with regs that limp/call atleast not yet ) when they do check behind however it looks to me that they have missed the flop with an Ax hand or some PP; come to think about it our hand does not have much SD value so turning it into a bluff is a good option. I'm not sure about the turn x/r because when we check they can check behind and deny us the bluff opportunity. Taking down that pot looks sweet!
What would you have done on the river if they checked behind OTT?

Last edited by geoVARTA; Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 09:59 AM..
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:33 PM
(#3)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Hi Greg, I don't think this is a 3bet situation because it was limped and not raised. We are basically, taking initiative with a hand that flops poorly and would be looking to win this with a cbet against his limp/calling range.

...

What would you have done on the river if they checked behind OTT?
Hi Geo, no this isnt a 3bet spot. It was just a spot that occurred today. but I felt it exemplified the approach I often employ with small pairs. Again, this goes back to Dave telling me to correlate the prf action with the expected postflop action. As you say, I am playing the villain, both their range and their perception of my range, rather than my own cards. One might argue that we could do this move with ATC. I am not that daring! I am most comfortable doing it with small pairs (in the right situation) for several reasons.

Firstly, we actually have a made hand holding a pair. Also, sometimes you actually flop a well concealed set. The villain will have a hard time putting you on 22 since you raised/3b pf. Finally, it is easier for me to let the hand go when things go south. With sc, I sometimes end up chasing a draw or making bad calls with middle pair. If I take the same line with sc I just don't feel as confident in my own play. I don't think I have ever made a complete random ATC preflop bluff in a cash game. I like to have some sort of back up plan.

In this particular hand, if they had checked the turn I would be a bit stuck and don't have a clear plan for the river. This is not a fully developed approach, just a line that I have been doing more and more of the past few months. It does not work as well at lower levels!

If I can set my hem filter for these exact spots, Ill post my stats later.

All input would be welcome!

Greg (Roland GTX)
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:24 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi Greg,

It's interesting, because I would probably 3b you on the turn with my entire range here. You're not repping anything credible, it looks like a bluff.

I like the preflop play, your read and range on villain is similar to your own hand, in that you both will flop marginal most of the time. By seizing the initiative, you'll set yourself up to win without flopping a set when he misses (as you can rep a stronger range which you note). It exploits his attempt to see a cheap flop with a marginal hand trying to hit.

Post flop we get off that plan though... why check the flop to him? Would you actually check AQ or an overpair? Better? On a wet coordinated board, not likely. You certainly wouldn't check strong hands to him twice. So when you check-raise the turn, unless you are holding KJ and are super slow play crazy, I would expect you to never have a hand and just be trying to take it down.

I would expect you to cbet this flop with all your good and really good hands, unless you were trying to induce an aggro player to bluff (but obviously he's not super aggro if he's limp/calling pre). If you were for some reason inducing with a monster, you would almost certainly bet the turn and not risk a 2nd free card + lost value after the board gets even more wet.

C-bet flop solid imo, and we can shut it down if we get called. But let's follow through on our preflop read and plan and give 66 and A7s a chance to fold.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:03 PM
(#5)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Excellent reply Dave!

Yeah, c-betting would have been better. Tbh, my c-bets havent been getting much respect lately. I think I subconsciously may have been shying away from doing that here hoping to check-raise instead. Either way, I did a bad job adjusting on the turn.

Your description of the turn is spot on, and rather scary to see that I completely overlooked it. I'm glad I wasnt facing you in this hand!

Thanks again for a game improving reply!

Greg
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:10 PM
(#6)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
C-bet flop solid imo, and we can shut it down if we get called.
One thing I don't like cbetting here is that the flop is very wet, and against limp/callers I think they could peel here with a lot of Kx,Jx,8x etc. and with our hand it'll be difficult to barrel the turn which makes me more inclined to x/f or x/r to get him off his marginal holding/draw (then again these guys seem to get sticky so bluff raising might not work if they do bet when we check to them). On a Qxx I'd be cbetting 100%
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:30 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
One thing I don't like cbetting here is that the flop is very wet, and against limp/callers I think they could peel here with a lot of Kx,Jx,8x etc. and with our hand it'll be difficult to barrel the turn which makes me more inclined to x/f or x/r to get him off his marginal holding/draw (then again these guys seem to get sticky so bluff raising might not work if they do bet when we check to them). On a Qxx I'd be cbetting 100%
I don't disagree, but I think when we raise pre we need to continue attacking his weak range on the flop. That's why I would c-bet larger than normal here... I would do this for both value and protection with my strong hands, and I want to discourage light peels since it's going to be a one stop shot basically. I would probably barrel an ace or 2 and maybe not much else if called.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:42 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Dave so what would look more credible to you if we wanted to slow play a monster OOP and i think we should always be betting a set on this wet flop but a straight we could check and lead the turn if villain never bet the flop?

Would you be more likely to put them on a strong hand i do agree though with you that Rolands hand looks like complete air or tptk trying to see where it stands by min raising and folding the turn.

This is a board that i found most players are just really exploitable on because like Geovarta says hes never cbetting this flop with air so i know when he does bet he has a hand so il fold all my junk when he bets and got a good amount of his stack with my monsters just because no one is defending this flop.

I like the lead on the turn when i check these flops sometimes and i figured we can cbet these flops with some backdoor straights and flush draws, surely we cant check our air though on this flop 24 7 because players like yourself will see all this and run us over.

Last edited by mike2198; Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 04:44 PM..
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 05:09 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Why would we want to slow play a monster on a wet board? The weak parts of his range, the A5s and 66 hands will just fold to a c-bet, but those won't give much action later anyway so there's no incentive to slow play. The parts that hit this board with top pair, 2 pair, pair+draws etc, are all going to give action now but a 4th straight card might freeze them. Slow playing a monster here is pretty -EV imo.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:20 PM
(#10)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
If i flopped a nut flush i might check when people could make a straight but it would be so rare anyway i was just trying to work out what would you think would look more credible when you check that flop. I would always bet a monster into most players on most boards but if i knew someone was good and i knew he knew i only bet this flop when i hit then why would i cbet?

Like i said i notice people dont like cbetting these flops with air when they have some sort of understanding about how hard people hit what flops, then i know how some players wouldn't even want to bet big with even TPTK on this flop and if they did they arnt gonna bet that turn strong.

Actually i would like to see people write down what they cbet on this board and i bet it isnt much which was why i started cbetting backdoor draws as well but its mainly for abit of practice for if i ever get to stakes where people are actually looking at what boards i bet and what i dont.

I really doubt anyone even cares at 25nl if i only bet strong on a flop like this with only two pair plus but theres no harm in learning better ways to defend this board now. I dont even like betting TPTK on this board myself because if i get raised im likely to fold and i would rather start betting the turn on safe cards and go from there so when i do bet strong on this flop im just super exploitable.
 
Old
Default
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:26 PM
(#11)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Actually i would like to see people write down what they cbet on this board and i bet it isnt much
Flop is

I'm c-betting the flopped nuts (KJ), all overpairs (KK+), all sets (QQ, TT, 99), two pairs (QTs, T9s), TPTK (AQ), all pair+draw combos (KQ, AJ, QJ, JJ, JT, J9s), and probably a few underpairs too. I'm probably not betting many random Ax hands though, as they don't have much equity against hands that would call/raise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
I dont even like betting TPTK on this board myself because if i get raised im likely to fold and i would rather start betting the turn on safe cards and go from there so when i do bet strong on this flop im just super exploitable.
If you're not c-betting TPTK, you're missing value and allowing yourself to get bluffed off the best hand.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:27 PM
(#12)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Flop is

If you're not c-betting TPTK, you're missing value and allowing yourself to get bluffed off the best hand.
Yeah i spose you can get value from a ton of draws but i dont want to build a pot with TPTK, what sizing are you going for? and what about if the turn was a blank do you fire again trouble is then your OOP and dont want to fire a river bet, maybe i should start cbetting TPTK against all but aggro players i dont mind betting into stations but i was liking my check and bet the turn approach on this board.

I might try that line out then but im never cbetting into aggro players because your getting raised to often there.

As for what your cbetting seems pretty decent i would bet all of that IP but OOP i dont want to get raised with OESD when im OOP i spose i should be betting GS and folding a big raise. Il have to think about my range on those boards.

Betting under pairs though id rather bluff raise or lead the turn if villain checks behind on the flop, i do prefer betting the turn though cus sometimes my set might come in and im more likely to steal the pot because i would expect villain to bet the flop with most of his good hands.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com