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Insult to Injury 2

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Insult to Injury 2 - Thu Nov 28, 2002, 03:17 PM
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Actully this isn't a new topic. It's the continuation of an old one. The reason I am starting it anew is that the old thread is almost off the bottom of the page and it isn't getting very many hits anymore.

I took me an awful long time to get back to it and to get my response written. I think I have something important to say and I hope you'll take the time to read it.

In my original post I railed about people who say "sorry" after they've put a bad beat on you and possibly knocked you out of a tournament. I stated that I thought this was disgusting behavior and hoped that I could convince some people to refrain from doing it. I stated that I had gotten rid of all apologizing from my life which means that I don't offer apologies nor do I accept them. I took a little flack for my stance and decided to respond.

I didn't mean for this to be such a monster post but once I started typing it seemed to take on a life of it's own.

I hope I didn't get too repetitive. I also hope it's not as convoluted to you as it seems to me now that I've read it but I've spent too much time as it is trying to edit it to get it right so here goes.

joybell wrote:

Quote:
Sgt: Do you have any children? If the answer is in the affirmative are you teaching them to NEVER say I'm sorry.

Oh, what a sad world this is coming to.
If I had children and I wanted them to grow up free from all self-defeating behavior then…yes, I would try to teach them that apologizing us a total waste of time and I would hope that they would eliminate this behavior from their lives. To me accepting responsibility for other people’s feelings and indulging in apologies isn’t wrong just some of the time, it’s wrong all of the time.

My world isn’t sad. The people I am close to still love me regardless of whether or not they agree with my life philosophies. One person who knows how I feel about apologizing still uses apologies all the time. She knows that apologizing to me is a waste of time but she still does it because it is so ingrained in her personality and that is just who she is. And that’s ok as long as she doesn’t become immobilized when she feels I have offended her and an apology isn’t forthcoming.

rosita wrote:

Quote:
“What if you are responsible for 'how they are feeling'. Say your dog bites an infant in the park, or your car has a brake failure due to your negligence and injures someone..? etc ..”
First, I’m not ever responsible for how ‘they’ are feeling. ‘They’ have chosen the specific feelings they are having in any given present moment and I will not allow ‘them’ to shift responsibility for those feelings onto my shoulders.

Second, if I ever had dog, which I never would, and that dog bit a child in the park, I’d shoot the prick on the spot. Ok, so I would probably just call the SPCA and have them come and get the animal and put it to sleep. And that would be the positive response to the situation. Standing there wringing my hands and engaging in the totally self-defeating behavior of apologizing to the child gains me absolutely nothing. Nor does it gain the child anything

And, your car with the brake failure analogy is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I have no problem accepting responsibility for my actions. I just won’t accept responsibility for how you choose to feel (psychologically) about anything that has happened.

rosita also wrote:

Quote:
Sounds like a cold, cold world you inhabit Sgt.
Wow! You know one fact about me and you have made a judgment that my world is cold? Please…my world is no more or less cold than yours.

Shadrak wrote:

Quote:
“Not only do you need to apologize in real life situations to real people at times; but you need to understand people expect apologies in certain instances.”
Actually I don’t have that ‘need’. I have eliminated that need from my life as I have eliminated many other ‘needs’ in life. It’s important to try to understand that apologizing is not a need but a personal choice. I found out that I could choose positive responses to any given situation rather than negative responses.

I do understand that ‘people expect apologies in certain instances’. I also understand that they have to deal with their ‘need’ for this self-defeating behavior and if I succumb to their ‘needs’ then I’m not being true to myself. I won’t compromise my ideals because you have erroneous needs. And as long as you see them as ‘needs’ then you’re always going to be caught up in the fallacies.

Indy_Bob was heading in the right direction when he wrote:

Quote:
“I have to agree in part with SgtCyber on the subject of people's feelings being hurt. No one's feelings can become "hurt", unless that person chooses to allow his/her feelings to be hurt.”

This leads me to believe that Bob understands that whatever a person’s feelings are at a given present moment in time those feelings exist because that person made a choice to have them. And, the responsibility for that choice has to reside with that person.
But then he did a complete turnaround when he wrote:

Quote:
“So, in a sense, it IS partly my fault for allowing a negative emotion to arise in any situation. But, I DO NOT believe that this releases me from owing someone an apology, if an action of mine hurts this person in any way.”
Bob, you didn’t allow a negative emotion to arise, the other person made a choice to experience that negative emotion. That’s his/her responsibility, not yours. Accepting responsibility for other people’s feelings is also a self-defeating behavior that I have tried to eliminate from my life.

Indy also wrote:

Quote:
“Sometimes, I may apologize even if I am NOT sorry, if the situation warrants. If swallowing a little of my pride can help another human being feel a little better, then HOW can I possibly be hurting myself?”
That’s ok. If you understand that that person is placing responsibility for their present moment happiness on your shoulders and you’re willing to accept that responsibility, and they understand what is really happening, then go for it. Unfortunately most people don’t think about it like that and they aren’t consciously aware that a conspiracy is going down. You’re both conspiring to accept responsibility for each other’s present moment happiness.

I’ve just chosen to eliminate this behavior from my life.

Finally Indy wrote:

Quote:
“I am human and I do make mistakes, but this in no way gives me a right to feel like I am never at fault for anything.”
Of course you are at fault at times. And, we all make mistakes. And I’m the first person to accept responsibility for my own actions and when I make a mistake I will be the first to own up to it. And I’ll try to do what I can to fix it but I won’t be responsible for what you tell yourself or how you choose to feel about that mistake.

Noodles wrote:

Quote:
“If you explain why it is a negative thing, then maybe you will influence people to follow your suggestion. I do actually remember reading something about this in some self-improvement type book, and it made good sense. However, I do not actually remember what the book said. Would you care to educate us as to why it is a good thing to eliminate?”
Ok, I’ll try to see if I can do it justice.

First, with reference to the self-improvement book you mentioned, there are a slew of them on the market but the one that helped me to understand a whole bunch about life and helped me to make some changes is called “Your Erroneous Zones” by Dr. Wayne W. Dyer. It was written in 1976 and spent a long time on the Best Seller list.

Dr. Dyer’s book is about present moment happiness and how, as individuals, we take away from out present moment happiness by indulging in self-defeating behavior such as approval seeking. It’s about how we immobilize ourselves in the present by choosing to experience useless emotions such as guilt over a past event or worry about an event that has yet to happen. And it’s about how we accept responsibility for how other people are feeling in their present moments and how we place responsibility for how we are feeling on other people. It’s about showing us that when we get angry it’s because we choose to get angry and not because it ‘just happens’. And it’s about showing us that we can make alternative choices if we want to. These and other emotions that we experience are the “Erroneous Zones”.

They’re erroneous because we accept them as being just part of human nature. They are emotions and states of mind that we have been conditioned to accept as being beyond our control, things that just happen rather than things that we cause to happen. They are erroneous because most of us don’t realize that we are in total control. We are a sum total of our choices and we don’t have to waste so much of our present moment happiness by indulging in these negative behaviors. Feeling sorry and apologizing is a sub category of accepting responsibility for other people’s feelings.

Dr. Dyer starts off his book with:

Quote:
“A speaker stood before a group of alcoholics determined to demonstrate to them, once and for all, that alcohol was an evil beyond compare. On the platform he had what appeared to be two identical containers of clear fluid. He announced that one contained pure water and the other was filled with undiluted alcohol. He placed a small worm in a container and everyone watched as it swam around and headed for the side of the glass, whereupon it simply crawled to the top of the glass. He then took the same worm and placed it in the container with alcohol. The worm disintegrated right before their eyes. “There,” said the speaker. “What’s the moral?” A voice form the rear of the room said quite clearly, “I see that if you drink alcohol, you’ll never have worms.”

This book has a lot of “worms’ in it…meaning, you will hear and perceive exactly what you want to hear based on many of your own values, beliefs, prejudices and personal history. Self-defeating behavior and the ways to overcome it are touchy areas to write about.”
With that in mind I will try to show you where I am coming from and why I wrote the post in the first place.

One thing that is important to try to understand is that the emotions and states of mind that we experience in life don’t just happen. They are choices that we make and each of us has the option of making different choices for each and every situation. If you understand that when you get angry it’s a choice you make then you become fully capable of choosing a reaction different than anger. And this is the case with all your emotions and states of mind.

In his book Dr. Dyer doesn’t get into apologizing a whole lot other than to write:

Quote:
“Work at eliminating the numerous apologies that you make even when you aren’t really sorry for what you’ve just said. All apologies are pleas for forgiveness, and requests for forgiveness are approval-seeking which takes the form of, “I know you wouldn’t like me if I really meant what I just did, so please say that I’m still okay.” Apologizing is a waste of time. If you need someone else to forgive you before you can feel better, then you are giving him or her control over your feelings. While you can resolve not to behave in certain ways again, and see some of your behavior as unfortunate, apologizing behavior is a sickness that invests control of one’s feelings in another.”
Let’s look a situation I’m sure we’ve all experienced many times in our lives. This is not from Dr. Dyer’s book.

Your wife/girlfriend comes home from shopping with a new dress. Excitedly she rushes upstairs to put it on and is back in a flash to get your opinion. You look at the dress and realize that not only is it an ugly dress but it also makes her look like she’s carrying about fifteen pounds more weight than she really is carrying.

There are two different scenarios that may follow.

Being the truthful person that you are, you tell her what you really do think. Immediately she starts to go through a series of emotions beginning with surprise that you don’t like the dress, followed by surprise that you would actually tell her so, followed by hurt that you would actually destroy her present moment happiness with this revelation, followed by anger that you have absolutely no concern for her feelings, and followed finally by hours of the silent treatment ending with a demand that you apologize for hurting her feelings and making her angry. You apologize and tell her that you didn’t really mean it and if she would just forgive you, you could go on living your life knowing that you really are an okay person. With reservations she forgives you and all is fine once more. But is it really?

What has just happened?

First of all your lady wasn’t really looking for the truth in the first place. Some of her self worth comes from what you think about her and what she was really looking for was strokes. What she was seeking was approval from you for her choice in clothing. What she expected to hear was, “Wow sweetheart! That really is a nice dress and it really suits you.” Had that happened her self worth would have been validated and she would have happily carried on with her day knowing that you will always be there for that validation. Unfortunately her need to seek your approval can blow up in her face when you have the unmitigated gall to tell her what you really think.

Now she becomes immobilized in her present moment by the hurt and anger that she has chosen and she places responsibility for those feelings on your shoulders. You didn’t hurt her feelings; she chose to experience those hurt feelings by what she told herself about what you said. You didn’t maker her angry; she chose to experience anger because of what she told herself about your reaction to the situation.

If her self worth really came from within she wouldn’t need your approval to validate her as a human being and she wouldn’t hold you responsible for her happiness. Being secure with herself involves being able to accept that you aren’t going to like everything that she says or does. Accepting responsibility for her own feelings and not placing that responsibility on you is the first step towards learning how to eliminate self-defeating behavior from her life and in turn spending less time in present moment negativity.

You, on the other hand, chose to allow yourself to be manipulated into your own self-defeating behavior. You are a co-conspirator here. You also get some of your self worth from what she thinks of you and you jumped right in and accepted responsibility for her feelings. And, no doubt, you added to the situation by experiencing guilt over having hurt her and worry about whether or not she was going to forgive you. Because this post is already too long I won’t delve in that aspect of the scenario. In the end you relented and apologized. She forgave you and all was fine. But, as I said, it really wasn’t’.

For a while those hurt feelings that your lady was experiencing will lay just beneath the surface and it will take a while for them to disappear. And for a while the resentment that you felt at having to proffer that apology will also lay just beneath the surface and it will also take a while for that to disappear. And, for a while, even though you might choose to ignore it, your relationship is going to suffer until you both can put these feelings behind you.

In the second scenario, when your wife asks you what you think of her new dress, in a split second the first scenario flashes through your head and you immediately decide that you’re not going to go there today so you lie to her and you do say,” Wow sweetheart, that really looks great and it really suits you.”

She is happy because she got what she was looking for and you are happy because you avoided an ugly confrontation. But again you haven’t been true to yourself because you had to lie to her. And don’t tell yourself, “Awe, it’s just a little white lie.” Lies don’t come in colors and sizes. A lie is a lie, is lie, etc. A rose by any other name…

More self-defeating behavior that we all have a shot at eliminating.

I don't want to end this post becaue I somehow feel that I haven't done the topic justice but it's too long already so I'll finish off.

I just want to mention something else that Dr. Dyer mentions in his book:

We've all grown up in a culture which has taught us that we are not responsible for our feelings even though the truth is that we always were. We've learned a host of sayings to defend ourselves against the fact the we do control our feelings. Following is a short list of sayings that we us over and over.

In each case the first saying has a built-in message that you are not responsible for how you feel. Then each one is rewritten so that it reflects the fact that you are in charge of how you feel and that your feelings come from the thoughts you have about anything.

Instead of saying, “You hurt my feelings,” try “I chose to have hurt feelings about what you said.”

Instead of saying, “You piss me off,” try “I chose to be pissed off by what you did.”

Instead of saying, “He makes me sick,” try “I make myself sick over the things he does.”

Instead of saying, “I can’t help the way I feel,” try “I can help the way I feel, but I’ve chosen to be upset.”

And finally, instead of saying, “You made a fool of me in public,” try “I made myself feel foolish by taking your opinions of me more seriously than my own, and believing others would do the same.”

The list could go on forever but this should be enough for you to get the message.

This is probably going to sound rather foolish to you at first but I’d be willing to bet that after a while you’ll be able to understand and accept that, in each case, the second statement much more ressembles the truth.

And, as Dr. Dyer would say, always try to remember that feelings are not just emotions that happen to you. Feelings are reactions you choose to have. If you are in charge of your emotions you don’t have to choose self-defeating reactions.

At least, that’s the way I see it.

sarge
 
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Thu Nov 28, 2002, 04:39 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
This makes me laugh, I want to say so bad WAKE THE HELL UP.

U live in ur world as we all live in ours. I take full responsiblitly for any action i do wether rite or wrong. I assure u i say things on a weekly basis that pisses people off that work for me. You see im a demanding person and i want things done rite. now i could choose to not be angry with there ignorance and let them run my business into the ground but i see no basis in ur statements.


I am a human being not a robot. U quote dyer well this is my quote,, "THE TRUTH HURTS" From a early stage in my life I always had a bluntness about me. I dont tell lies never have liked that kinda stuff. If i say something i say exactly how i see it or how i feel it. Now this has cost me quite m uch in my life. When my father passed we were not on good terms because i had been blunt, When i get around my inlaws i cant put up a sharade I dont like the kinda people they are nor how they act. Actions speak louder than words. I assure u they know their not my best friends. Not because i choose to be rude just because im honest. In my business i always state u know where ur at with me. If i dont like u dont worry im not gonna candy cote it. I treat people the way i want to be treated if they deserve it. I do not tolerate ignorance, cruelty, or any type of negativity towards me my family or my friends. I have always been a protector.

Now I read ur post, I agree we are responsible for our feelings but I assure u on any given day i can piss the best of them off I dont care how gooda control u got on ur emotions. For u to say it is other peoples choice is kinda redicouls. such a broad statement.

Yes over internet no problem, but in everyday life things u say, do affect more than just u. for u to take no responsiblity u seem like such a selfish person. people do not choose how u react yet ur reactions dictate there reactions and it is a big puzzle of moves. THATS LIFE.

I have been in Sales and sports many years. I believe u can bread negativity so it is a thought in our minds. Now i also believe that other people can control what is put into our minds. The old saying we are a product of our enviorment.

I have so many thoughts in my mind now just cant type them down but seems like would be a great discussion topic. I stronglyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy disagree with much of thought processs of responsiblity. I understand the thought but it is the responsiblity that i have a hang up with.

Im not a english major or much of a typer so let me just end this. If u ever want to discuss verbally i would be more than happy to.

ur friend

and i am responsible to u and my fellow man for my actions that causes ur reactions wether good or bad
 
Old
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Thu Nov 28, 2002, 05:35 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
Whew! There is one thing I'd like to add to this here discussion,

Happy Thanksgiving, y'all.

Bill
 
Old
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Thu Nov 28, 2002, 05:40 PM
(#4)
Deleted user
i started to read post number one and quit after a while..long ago

now i saw number 2 and due to the size of it makes me wonder what this was all about..and in my oppinion there are other things to say
...besides what is important for you sgt (and only for you and the people that live with you and near you) and the things that you believe there are other things

one of them is society and culture....and we all live in a society were there are rules (ehtical and civic rules that we SHOULD follow)

besides (again) what you believe you must understand what major part of people in civilized countries do believe and EXPECT in commons situations

yes..saying sorry after a bad beat its not important...is like saying hello when you arrived to a table..or goodevening when you enter in a friends house..yes it is not important but is what people expect

saying thank you, sorry, dont make any diference at all and can makes ALL the diference in some situations.

spades 8)
 
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Thu Nov 28, 2002, 07:10 PM
(#5)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Sgtcyber's post is , IMO, a shining example of placing the individual supreme above all others. If that is how you chose to live your life, so be it. Find "New Age Psycho-babble" to support it if you wish. However, unless you chose an eccentrically exclusive lifestyle, you will intereact with other people on a regular basis. Following societal norms of politeness is just a way to reduce friction in those interactions. It does not presume weakness on your part. Nor does it infer your responsibility for the others reactions. Following these norms is a choice you are free to make and, when you try to rally others to your cause, we are likewise free to object.

The irony in this is I agree with your point that saying "I'm sorry" for busting someone out or otherwise bad beating them is unecessary at the table. But my view stems from the fact that it is the objective of Poker, to get the other guy's chips into your stack by any ethical means. If I mistakenly bet out of turn or make some other faux paux at the table I will sincerely apologize. If it catch a runner-runner to beat ya, that's poker and you knew it was likely to happen when you took your seat at the table.

Shuffle up and deal.
 
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Thu Nov 28, 2002, 08:07 PM
(#6)
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About the Poker "I'm sorry"....I agree with TJoe, I will not apologize for the cards I play, how I play them or what I may win with. That's the game. I may be sorry that I eliminate a particular player, as opposed to another as I may like that player better and would have hoped they would have fared better, but, I'm not sorry that I came out the better in the situation.

About life.
First of all....I think Sgts, post looses all value as he bases it on apologizing is somehow taking RESPONSIBILTY for how someone is feeling and how they must take repsonsibility for their own feelings. WRONG!! Feelings are not right or wrong, feelings just ARE. We are not responsible for making them happen, in either ourself or others, they are a part of our human character. Would I choose to be overcome with grief at the death of my Mother or Father, my child or a loved one? Of course not, but yet I am. Human factor. Now, how I handle that grief or emotion, or "feeling" IS my choice. Obviously, why people handle emotionall situations differntly. Some are physically and emotionally overcome and exhibit that outwardly, some "close up" and retreat within themselves. That becomes the choice....not the feeling.
If I say or do something that causes another person to have an emotional "feeling", whether it is sadness, anger, pity, disgust, laughter, whatever...I AM responsible for triggering the emotion, but I have no control over how they react to that feeling.
Ever hear the expressions..."made someone cry"..."made someone laugh"? Yes? We cause that "feeling", thus we are responsible for the triggering. The fact that they reacted in that particular way, is their response. Of course we don't control that response and therefore it is theirs, but we are responsible for the "trigger".
Most times, when we "trigger" a feeling in someone, we are expecting, or anticipating a certain response, based on past experience. In other words, we tell a joke, we expect a laugh, we tell a sad story, we expect a sad response, we apologize, we expect to make someone feel better. Therefore, we are "triggering" an emotion, or a "feeling" if you will. Are we responsible for that feeling...I think in most peoples logical understanding, we would say yes.
When Dr. Dyer speaks of "emiminating" apologies (and I've heard him speak numerous times), I believe, and of course it's my interpetation, that he speaks of apologizing needlessly to gain approval, which may in fact be the thrust of what prompted Sgts, post, as he, like some others of us, find it useless to apologize in poker for doing something we actually intended to do....winning. I believe, there are situations when you absolutely should apologize for your actions. If you have "triggerd" a feeling in someone that has caused them pain, then even though what you have said is truthful and honest, you can still be sorry that they "feel" the way they "feel" about what has been said. For example..."I'm sorry, but I just ran over your dog". Yes, I'm sorry for my action, that obviously will cause them to feel some sort of pain of loss. I am not being self defeating, I am empathizing with what I know would cause me to feel badly, and therefore hope to ease some of their pain or emotional discomfort at the loss, and therefore hopefully help them to react or feel better about a bad situation.
For someone to say that they have NO need to apologize in their life, to me is not being honest with yourself. If you have no human emotion or reaction to the way people feel, you may be very close to being what is clinically diagnosed as a sociopath, or someone with a lack of concious. Our own "feelings" will at time drive us to apologize for our actions..and not admitting that we have that need, may not be as healthy as Sgt. may believe. Having no regard for the "feelings" of others, and that's what you are saying when you say you are not "responsible" for how they feel, is a dangerous thought process.
Of course, this is all my take on things, after having lived a long time and being around a wide variety of people in all different situations, as that is the only thing we derive our own belief system from.

8O

'Goddess
 
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Thu Nov 28, 2002, 11:39 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
Sarge, I figured out long ago that other people or events are not responsible for how I feel/react. It is the way I habitually react in my thought world in response to what happens that is responsible for my feelings/reactions etc. So I understand where you are coming from.

If I get angry, it is not because of what somebody did, it is because of my habitual thoughts in response to it. Same with being happy etc. All a habit of mind. Never connected it to apologising though.

Doesn't feel as though I explained that well, but it's late so I'll leave it.
 
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Thu Nov 28, 2002, 11:49 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Quote:
Work at eliminating the numerous apologies that you make even when you aren’t really sorry for what you’ve just said. All apologies are pleas for forgiveness, and requests for forgiveness are approval-seeking which takes the form of, “I know you wouldn’t like me if I really meant what I just did, so please say that I’m still okay.” Apologizing is a waste of time. If you need someone else to forgive you before you can feel better, then you are giving him or her control over your feelings. While you can resolve not to behave in certain ways again, and see some of your behavior as unfortunate, apologizing behavior is a sickness that invests control of one’s feelings in another.”
Work at eliminating the numerous apologies that you make even when you aren’t really sorry for what you’ve just said.

This is an example of apologizing when you have done nothing harmful or neglectful but still hurt someones feelings by saying something that was truthful but hurtful. It usually goes something like this... I'm sorry what I said hurt you. This serves absolutely no purpose. You are not apologizing for your actions. You are apologizing for the effect this had on another individual. This is not an apology, it is the equivalent to "I'm Sorry That The Truth Hurts". You can have empathy for the pain the truth causes the person without being sorry for what was said. I can see how this could be counterproductive.

Apologizing for your own neglect or intentional actions that harms an innocent party is a completely different matter. Apologizing in this case is constructive.


Quote:
Apologizing is a waste of time. If you need someone else to forgive you before you can feel better, then you are giving him or her control over your feelings.
I think this is misquoted or just bad writing. More importantly from the quotes provided I think you are missing the point. This author is focusing on unhealthy qualities possessed by those who value their lives based on the opinions of others. I do not think the author is trying to prove that apologizing is harmful. His point is that our reason for apologizing is many times not healthy.
 
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Fri Nov 29, 2002, 01:40 AM
(#9)
Deleted user
:? wow: that is deep sgt. I am lost for words. I am one of those people that apoligizes and I do gotta admit I apoligize sometimes to just get on with things. I understand what you are trying to say and I think on the most part, this is going over most peoples heads. so all I an say is " different strokes, for different folks" I don't believe that makes anyone either right or wrong, I believe it is their choice.
I will say something, I do not believe you are a man that is cold and has no feeling for others, I believe alot here have not understood what is really being said and maybe they should read it one more time, as it is p r i t t y deep.

Have a Great Day :wink:


babe60
 
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Fri Nov 29, 2002, 12:10 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
Here's what I don't get, Sarge. You say:

1. An individual is responsible for how they react emotionally to an event (i agree). It is our "choice" (to some degree anyway) to get pissed off when someone bumps into us, cuts us off on the highway, whatever.

2. You believe (I disagree) that ALL apology is self-defeating behavior and ONLY seeks validation from the "wronged" person for your own self-gratification.

My question is why did you come to the forum HOT (as you put it) and post about this in the first place. By your own words, it is YOUR choice to be pissed off that people choose to engage in self-defeating behavior and apologize to you for busting you out. As they (the apologizers) are NOT in any way responsible for how you take their apologizing or the emotional reaction it ellicits from you, why are you posting that you are "hot" and this behavior must stop? You are engaging in the same self-defeating behavior that you claim should be eliminated from our lives, and is eliminated from yours.

I agree, that, in most cases, someone apologizing for a bad beat is seeking validation from you, the victim of his foolish play. Not all apologizing is the same thing. A legitimate apology is an acknowlegdement that your actions/words created a situation that negatively affected another. A legitimate apology IS a form of taking responsibility for your actions. A couple examples:

One night driving home from work, I made a right on red turn, thinking the straight lane also had red and the turns green. I was wrong, the straight lane (of the road i was pulling onto) had green, and I pulled right out in front of two guys in a truck. As they sped past me, they flipped me off and yelled. Ahead of us was a redlight, which we both had to stop at. Once I had, the driver rolled his truck back so the passenger could insult and threaten me. Now, how could I react? Apparently, Sarge would just ignore them competely (after all, he bears NO responsibility for them being pissed off, that is their choice). However, the way I see it is I, through my actions, created a negative situation which they are now responding too. It doesn't matter one bit if they were yelling or smiling at me, my action would have been the same. Their verbal attacks didn't bother me, as I created the situation, and could understand where their anger was coming from. I rolled down my window and said "Sorry, thought you guys had the red light, I was wrong." The pissed off passenger stared at me for a few seconds with his month slightly agape and then said "no problem" and said something to his buddy, who turned and waved. That was it. I would hardly call that self-defeating behavior. I wasn't looking for their forgiveness, simply acknowledging my driving error.

Another example, more a question, I guess. What would you do, sarge, if you bumped into someone in a bar causing them to spill their beer? Again, regardless of their "emotional" response or lack thereof, my response would be the same. I would apologize or say "excuse me" (same thing) and offer to replace the beer.

Your personal philosophy is your own, but to come to the forum, in the hopes that others will realize the "error" of their ways (ie impose your own personal views on everyone else) is wrong. No different than all the "believe as I do or burn" religious fanatics throughout the world. Your personal philopshy is just that, personal; as is your religion for that matter. You reacted negatively to the sorry-sayers, that is your own "choice". Its not their fault.

--Greagar
 
Old
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Fri Nov 29, 2002, 07:36 PM
(#11)
Deleted user
sgt,

I admire your choice to take personal responsibility for your own feelings!

I admire your courage to speak the truth and be true to yourself, although you maybe perceived as unkind or unempathic by others.

Even if what another person does or says "triggers" a particular emotional feeling in me, it is still possible to consciously choose my own response right after I become aware of what new feeling I am focused on.

I do not like the thought that others could "push my buttons" and make me act like a puppet, triggering any feeling whatever THEY chose to "make me feel" or trigger in me.

The more control we have over our own feelings, the better poker players we will be.

Very thought provoking post and responses.

Red Rabbit
 
Old
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Fri Nov 29, 2002, 08:24 PM
(#12)
Deleted user
Careful Sarge! Before too long Mark might try to charge you for all of the pshychiatric advice you are receiving from this forum. I dont know exactly how this falls into the realm of poker but I'll go with it anyway.

UP YOURS!

SORRY!

OH WAIT...NO IM NOT!

GUESS WHAT...I STILL LOVE YOU DO YOU LOVE ME!

My response to all of those comments would have been on the same line.

UDAMON SARGE!

Holla!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Old
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Sat Nov 30, 2002, 07:35 AM
(#13)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtcyber
It upsets me when someone calls into question my personal integrity.
(and several other examples of getting conspicuously 'steamed up')

Are you expecting anyone to care how you 'choose' to feel ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtcyber
And I also am done with this thread.
Seems not.

Your so-called philosophy might look a little more impressive if you managed to apply it in public places such as this.
 
Old
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Sat Nov 30, 2002, 09:31 AM
(#14)
Deleted user
IMPOSSIBLE! To go the rest of your life without ever apologizing to anyone again......ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE!

We're on this site because of poker, so can we compare life to a poker game? Maybe. In a poker game, there will come a time when you can play 72 off. It won't be very often, but undoubtedly one day you will play it. Likewise, there will come a time when (if you are a good enough player) you will have to lay down AA......and that might happen more often than you play the 72 off.

Likewise in life, there is a time and a place for everything, and apologising is one of the facts of life......EVERYONE DOES IT......and sooner or later, one day a situation will arise in your life when you will have to say you are sorry to someone. GUARANTEED. NO WAY AROUND IT.

The example you give of the wife/girlfriend and the new dress is also ludicrous. I don't believe for a minute that it's a scene from your life, just a made up example of WHAT IF? The fact is, if it she looks like mutton dressed as lamb, we're going to tell her, "Darling , I don't think it's quite you." We're certainly not going to be combative...... but maybe that's your life.

What next? You'll be telling us that you don't say 'please' or 'thank you' to anyone because saying those words are not a need, but a "personal choice." After all, if we EXPECT you to say please and thank you, we're being needy, and that would be a "self-defeating nature that gains you absolutely nothing."

I also think your world is sad. You have no children, no pets, it seems like you have nothing in your life to love you. Get a dog, I guarantee your life will improve.

Once again I say to you, one day, sooner or later you'll be saying sorry to someone. It's nature. I guarantee it. I'd bet my wealth on it. I'd bet my life on it.
Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. These are mine, I respect yours.

Keith
 
Old
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Sat Nov 30, 2002, 02:41 PM
(#15)
Deleted user
If anyone is interested Dr. Dyer is on PBS Sunday afternoon.

sarge
 
Old
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Sat Nov 30, 2002, 04:16 PM
(#16)
Deleted user
Quote:
If anyone is interested Dr. Dyer
Probably spend the time better doing a Google search on Alfred Korzybski.

Love.
 
Old
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Sat Nov 30, 2002, 04:51 PM
(#17)
Deleted user
Whatever turns your crank.
 
Old
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Sun Dec 01, 2002, 10:52 AM
(#18)
Deleted user
Sarge,

I agree in the poker end of your post. Apologizing for hands when your trying to win there chips or money seems absolutely silly.
The life type apologies...I want to make people feel good or better and if an apology helps then I will do it. I see exactly what you mean but how you get through daily life is your thing not mine. I dont always do the right things but my goal is to be happy and try and help others feel that way. Also is saying thank you for something the same...maybe we should just grunt our feelings. Your not cold ..well you might be depending on where you live. You are an individual just like everyone else. Blah blah blah blah ..ramble ramble ramble..ok bye..lol

Ciao
A1
 
Old
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Sun Dec 01, 2002, 02:57 PM
(#19)
Deleted user
Maybe when someone apologizes at the poker table it is just an easy way to say oops, you out played me and I got lucky. I should not have been in that pot. And to convey all of those words the easiest way to do that is with one word, SORRY. Almost everyone understands what this means. Kind of like the red light example. You realize that you made a bad move and you acknowdege it with an apology. Obviously the player is not sorry that they won the money, but are just acknowleging they played the hand poorly and the other player had the misfortune of being sucked out on.

Maybe we should not take everything so literally. And if you don't feel it is right to apologize, don't. And if someone else feels they want to, go right ahead.

Ricky Hard
 
Old
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Sun Dec 01, 2002, 03:21 PM
(#20)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Hard
Maybe we should not take everything so literally. And if you don't feel it is right to apologize, don't. And if someone else feels they want to, go right ahead.

Ricky Hard

" "


--Greagar
 

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