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KQ - Mon Sep 09, 2013, 05:23 PM
(#1)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

So i just decided that il take a shot at 25nl and this hand popped up. I cbet the flop to charge draws and get min raised now i don't know what a min raise is at 25nl but i doubt he does it with an ACE unless he is this guy that was trying to move me off my hand.

So i had him on a flush / straight draw i figure without any reads that hes only got the JTs JQs QTs in his range with JTs getting there on the turn but he bets small when i checked to him and i min raise. My reason for the min raise was because im not rolled for 25nl and i would of got away from a 3bet. Come to think of it now i should of flatted to see if i could fill up.

As played though the min raise worked out because with the club rolling off on the river and him betting small made me think he had some missed draw pair and a gutter type hand and he was just trying to get me off my hand, i figured AK AA KK QQ raises pre if not hes definitely raising bigger on the flop / betting bigger on the turn and seen as he called my min raise his line just looked like hes drawing to flush or a straight.

Im not worried about a set of 3s or AQ because i just thought he wasn't betting strong enough.

So i check the river and he bets less than half pot i figure he has to believe im fairly strong and would bet much bigger with a made flush and he cant have a straight because he would get me all in on the turn.

So as he bet he cant have AQ or a set because that just checks behind now so i guess KQo is good.

Is my thought process about right here?
 
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Mon Sep 09, 2013, 10:27 PM
(#2)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
I have to disagree with every move you made on that hand.

I feel like you are ranging to what you want him to have. You say you put him on JTs JQs QTs, thats too narrow of a range, and you shouldn't just decide to put him on a draw range and forget about pairs, two pairs and sets. JTs JQs QTs are just three combinations, you can add some more flush draws combinations and still you have AQ(9), AJ(12), ATs(3), A3s (2), 33(3) more combinations of 1 pair or better.

So i would check call flop to keep his weak range, like pocket pairs, KJs, KTs and draws.
Once he reraise im just folding. Its unlikely that he is doing this with a draw on a AK high board, since he would be worry of getting shoved.

Once improved to two pair I still like check calling, his hand looks a lot to AQ, slow played AK or a set of 33.

And the river im check calling a small bet, definetly not bet/calling. You put him all the way on a draw and still call river?

Last edited by CaRLoS_DZ87; Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:30 PM..
 
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Mon Sep 09, 2013, 11:55 PM
(#3)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi mike,

This is quite complicated. From both points of view, you raised and were only called by P6 on the c/o, no 3b and this closed the action pre-flop. Can we exclude monsters or is this trappy call?

You are oop and made a c-bet with 2nd pair and got raised? At least we know now, possibly one card?

Who is scared of the clubs? It doesn't matter. I would like to take back the initiative now and bet my two pair on the turn, maybe representing something else?

But by check raising the turn I can't believe P6 called without a relative hand strength better than yours, a set, straight or has QJc. Now I get very confused when the river club drops.

The check call to a 1/2 pot bet? I think I'm beat now but the bet is so inviting to call. Maybe the villain wasn't sure either. Bluff catch on the wire.


Last edited by ForrestFive; Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 12:00 AM..
 
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Tue Sep 10, 2013, 05:21 AM
(#4)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Mike,

Carlos and ForrestFive give some good points. I particularly like what Carlos suggests. x/c flop. It's a good line to take to control the size of the pot OOP and also to balance with our x/f & x/r line.
By checking we keep his range wide and by betting we force him to have either an Ace, a set, Kx, or a FD.
We can check and if they check take a delayed cbet OTT.
If they bet we call and re-evaluate the turn.
The thing is our hand has little room to improve and even if we are raised OTF with a FD we should be inclined to fold as we are OOP and hard to improve on later streets. By x/c we also take that option away from our opponent.
FDs will only be 3% of his range and gutshots 9% so I wouldn't be too worried about getting outdrawn here. That's if we include KTs/QTs/JTs in his range. I think these hands might fold given the positions we are in so we are looking at { JJ-22, AQ-AT, KQ, KJs/QJs } Against that range we have 60% equity.

But lets see what happens when we bet:
Villian will fold his misses: JJ-22, QJs(no club) and will continue by either calling or raising with the rest of his hands { 33, AQ-AT, KQ, KJs, QcJc } now we have 23% equity against that range!

By betting we just manipulated their range to where we lost our equity in the hand.
Hope this helps!
 
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Tue Sep 10, 2013, 01:17 PM
(#5)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaRLoS_DZ87 View Post
I have to disagree with every move you made on that hand.

I feel like you are ranging to what you want him to have. You say you put him on JTs JQs QTs, thats too narrow of a range, and you shouldn't just decide to put him on a draw range and forget about pairs, two pairs and sets. JTs JQs QTs are just three combinations, you can add some more flush draws combinations and still you have AQ(9), AJ(12), ATs(3), A3s (2), 33(3) more combinations of 1 pair or better.

So i would check call flop to keep his weak range, like pocket pairs, KJs, KTs and draws.
Once he reraise im just folding. Its unlikely that he is doing this with a draw on a AK high board, since he would be worry of getting shoved.

Once improved to two pair I still like check calling, his hand looks a lot to AQ, slow played AK or a set of 33.

And the river im check calling a small bet, definetly not bet/calling. You put him all the way on a draw and still call river?
No i was just saying that those were the straight draws out there and i wouldn't expect him to have offsuit JT QT and JQ, anyway when i said i had him on a draw i was saying he could have flush draws and straight draws, i think i said he could have AQ and sets as well but i was just saying it didnt seem like he was that strong to me with his bet sizes and this isnt a board to slowplay sets on or a straight especially when i min raised the turn he would of got it all in or at least raised it up enough for a pot sized bet on the river.

Then the flush gets there and he bets small why would he do that with a made flush he would put me all in when i min raised the turn so i was repping a big enough hand to stack off with even though i would of folded a decent size bet, i would of folded the turn if he bet strong and not weak on such a wet board.

Which is why i got to the river in the 1st place i just don't see how he can slow play any hands there when he calls the turn it looks to me like hes still drawing then that club rolled off and i was done in the hand until he made that bet that made me think he didn't even have a flush draw.

I do like your line better though i must admit and i don't like my turn raise either i didn't raise because i thought i got two pair i raise lol, i done it mainly for info because i had such a big stack for my bankroll i would of folded the 3bet and when he calls my raise is he just flatting a straight there i wouldn't of thought so, either way the river makes all draws possible he bets small again, is he ever that strong there really he would just check AK AQ and a set and i just dont think he would play those hands like that.


You put him all the way on a draw and still call river?
[

I didnt say he was on just a draw i said i think he more than likely has a draw but with what i said with his bet sizing and calling a turn raise and betting small on the river it just changed the way i perceived his range. Maybe he does min raise the flop with 3s and bet half pot on the turn and call a min raise but does he bet half pot on the river with AQ AK 33 when the flush comes in as well?
 
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Tue Sep 10, 2013, 01:20 PM
(#6)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
You don't think my min raise invites him to still hit any draws he might still have?

If we had the Qc would you like cbetting the flop then?

We are betting this flop into a fish all the time as well?

Last edited by mike2198; Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 01:28 PM..
 
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Tue Sep 10, 2013, 01:25 PM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Hi Mike,

Carlos and ForrestFive give some good points. I particularly like what Carlos suggests. x/c flop. It's a good line to take to control the size of the pot OOP and also to balance with our x/f & x/r line.
By checking we keep his range wide and by betting we force him to have either an Ace, a set, Kx, or a FD.
We can check and if they check take a delayed cbet OTT.
If they bet we call and re-evaluate the turn.
The thing is our hand has little room to improve and even if we are raised OTF with a FD we should be inclined to fold as we are OOP and hard to improve on later streets. By x/c we also take that option away from our opponent.
FDs will only be 3% of his range and gutshots 9% so I wouldn't be too worried about getting outdrawn here. That's if we include KTs/QTs/JTs in his range. I think these hands might fold given the positions we are in so we are looking at { JJ-22, AQ-AT, KQ, KJs/QJs } Against that range we have 60% equity.

But lets see what happens when we bet:
Villian will fold his misses: JJ-22, QJs(no club) and will continue by either calling or raising with the rest of his hands { 33, AQ-AT, KQ, KJs, QcJc } now we have 23% equity against that range!

By betting we just manipulated their range to where we lost our equity in the hand.
Hope this helps!



Really good point but how do we play this hand vs a lag that will bet when you check and barrel a load of turns which was my plan in the 1st place until he raised me on the flop.
 
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Tue Sep 10, 2013, 02:02 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I got another question if someone don't mind answering it, if were the villain there calling with ATo how can you make that hand a profitable call when were gonna miss the flop alot face a load of bets and get beat by better kickers?
 
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Tue Sep 10, 2013, 02:41 PM
(#9)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
[/B]

Really good point but how do we play this hand vs a lag that will bet when you check and barrel a load of turns which was my plan in the 1st place until he raised me on the flop.
Check-call flop. Check-fold turn if you don't improve (or pick up outs) and villain barrels. You have second pair! Don't play big pots with second pair, especially when you're out of position.

Quote:
I got another question if someone don't mind answering it, if were the villain there calling with ATo how can you make that hand a profitable call when were gonna miss the flop alot face a load of bets and get beat by better kickers?
I don't really like his pre-flop call, but any hand can be profitable in position if you have a plan to float against a one-and-done c-bettor.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue Sep 10, 2013, 03:19 PM
(#10)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
You don't think my min raise invites him to still hit any draws he might still have? Yes but:

1.- In my eyes with the range i gave him and the flop action im not worried about draws.
2.- With the flop action with no reads, i am worried that he can have a better hand and get shoved and dont know what to do with my hand. He does bet small on turn, but vs unknown its hard to know sometimes if small means weak, i mean min check raises from recreational player often means the nuts right?

If we had the Qc would you like cbetting the flop then?

No, we still don't get called by a lot worst and can't really fold better with two barrels, so rather keep his range wide. Also there are alot of turn card we like to see like a club, K,Q,J or a T and its easy and cheaper to see the turn and river if we check-call rather than risk getting raised, consider we have showdown value as well.

We are betting this flop into a fish all the time as well?
I still like check calling but its closer.

Quote:
I got another question if someone don't mind answering it, if were the villain there calling with ATo how can you make that hand a profitable call when were gonna miss the flop alot face a load of bets and get beat by better kickers?
Vs a standard TAG its not a profitable call, but if i would play it i would have to float some hands with backdoor draws, and try to take the pot when he gives up turn, and be carefull not to call a lot with just a pair of A's.
 
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Tue Sep 10, 2013, 03:42 PM
(#11)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Oh ok i see what your saying now Carlos you just don't think he has a draw at all because he min raised the flop and your saying its not a wise idea to raise an AK high flop with draws, il keep that in mind.
 
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Wed Sep 11, 2013, 05:19 PM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Everytime there's a Joker avi at the tables, I get confused for a minute and think it's Mike or Carlos. Then today I got double-confused because it actually was Mike at the tables lol



Saw Roland in the pool as well - didn't have a chance to say hi at the tables ... GL with the grind everybody!
 
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Wed Sep 11, 2013, 05:30 PM
(#13)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Hehe i just stacked someone with my set of Js there its funny cus he slow played a flopped set of 6s and he jammed the river when i hit a set of jacks.
 

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