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5NL Zoom (6 max) - 99 (BB) in M/W pot Vs 3 barrels on w/b

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5NL Zoom (6 max) - 99 (BB) in M/W pot Vs 3 barrels on w/b - Thu Sep 12, 2013, 09:04 PM
(#1)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
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Backgound:

I'd been playing pretty solid - VPIP 16; PFR 10; 3B 3 (223) [... & had just bought back in after leaving previous table with 200BB+].

No information on either Villain, other than they started hand with less than 100BB... so didn't have them down as regs.

Pre-flop:

Standard defend in m/w pot with 99 (BB).

Flop:

Villain 2 donk bets OTF. I was concerned about Villain 6 still to act behind so opted to call [... folding to a R]. Villain 6 folds.

Turn:

Horrible turn card, so my plan was to hit the fold button if Villain bets OTT... however Villain made it $0.25 which was v small compared with size of pot [$0.85] & seemed v weak so I opted to call... as I was getting odds of over 4-1 & would expect a larger bet if Villain had Ax; flush or f/d [mistake?].

River:

Villain makes another small bet OTR

Questions:

1). What do you make of Villain's line, bet sizing & what range would you put him on?
2). Would you call Villain's small bets OTT & OTR despite both f/ds & s/ds getting there?

Welcome your comments / feedback?

BR

Tony [aka Prodigy237]

Last edited by Prodigy237; Fri Sep 13, 2013 at 06:25 AM.. Reason: Added
 
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Thu Sep 12, 2013, 09:48 PM
(#2)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigy237 View Post
so I opted to call... as I was getting odds of over 4-1 & would expect a larger bet if Villain had Ax; flush or f/d [mistake?].

River:

Villain makes another small bet OTR

I like your big picture question - I guess the idea is that if somebody bets small, we ought to be inclined to call fairly wide because we're getting a good price, and only have to be good a tiny amount of the time.

But oftentimes people design their bet sizing to ensure a call, so lately I've been wondering if maybe I might want to be putting a little more thought into all those *little* calls I've been making here and there. Because a little here, and a little there, starts to add up to a lot pretty quickly, and it's beginning to feel more like spew in the collective ...


That board's so wet - in the very least, it seems like the villain must have at least Ax, if not the flush or straight? So tempting to call though!! Did you call/fold?
 
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Thu Sep 12, 2013, 09:49 PM
(#3)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
1) Most likely Tx, but also 5x and draw and so many more hands that it might be impossible to figure it out.
2) Multiway pot, so I shuld probably fold

Last edited by braveslice; Thu Sep 12, 2013 at 09:53 PM..
 
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Fri Sep 13, 2013, 05:32 AM
(#4)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Tony

The call preflop is pretty descent; I don't think Id ever 3bet there.
A flop donk bet MW is pretty fishy; sometimes you see players lead out MW with sets on flops that are draw heavy that tend to get checked back by the PFR ex. Jh9s6s but here I think it's not the case since villain puts small bets out on all streets. I think some villians will do that with a pair they have connected with on the flop sort of a protection bet from overcards. I think villain will have a Tx hand that is trying to go to SD with his blocking bets.

I'm not sure if I like the call OTF with 99 on T high and one player left to act. The thing is I don't know how to plan the hand on later streets. Maybe we should turn our hand into a bluff at some point.

As played, I think we call the turn for a FD and probably check back river if villain checks on non hearts otherwise I'd fold. We called the flop and we called the turn on an Ace that completed a flush. What does villain think we have?
 
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Fri Sep 13, 2013, 05:58 AM
(#5)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
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Hi George, Sam [& braveslice],

It was a pretty 'close' [+EV / -EV] call OTR [IMO], but after Villain tanked for a while before making his 'small' bet... I decided to make the call OTR [showdown to follow], but expected to see Ax [poss Tx] tbh. Had Villain not tanked and / or made it larger OTR... instant fold.

I did factor in that Villain may take same line on missed draws with hands with a single 'heart' e.g. KhQx, QhJx, Jh9x [... but would have expected larger bets with f/d or s/d OTT].

[George] 1). Do you think I should raise or fold OTF? 2). Not sure I'm brave enough in this spot [... as its a v risky play] to turn my hand into a bluff & raise OTT / OTR to chase away Ax, Tx hands?

Interesting spot... Welcome your thoughts / comments?

BR

Tony [aka Prodigy237]

Last edited by Prodigy237; Fri Sep 13, 2013 at 07:23 AM.. Reason: Added
 
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Fri Sep 13, 2013, 09:54 AM
(#6)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
I like your big picture question - I guess the idea is that if somebody bets small, we ought to be inclined to call fairly wide because we're getting a good price, and only have to be good a tiny amount of the time.

But oftentimes people design their bet sizing to ensure a call, so lately I've been wondering if maybe I might want to be putting a little more thought into all those *little* calls I've been making here and there. Because a little here, and a little there, starts to add up to a lot pretty quickly, and it's beginning to feel more like spew in the collective ...


That board's so wet - in the very least, it seems like the villain must have at least Ax, if not the flush or straight? So tempting to call though!! Did you call/fold?

Hi Sam,

I think had I been up against a reg or TAG then I would be v suspicious of the small bet as they may use smaller bets to induce action [... the art of making your action look weak, when you're actually v strong], but post-flop Villain was a bit too quick to donk OTF... & appeared hesitant thereafter, which is why I decided to make the call [... if that makes any sense].

BR

Tony [aka Prodigy237]

Last edited by Prodigy237; Fri Sep 13, 2013 at 10:04 AM.. Reason: Added
 
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Fri Sep 13, 2013, 11:33 AM
(#7)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Ok, After some more thought:

The sizing tells he is a fish (90%) - if so he would donk bet (80% imo) Tx & OP & a draw: flush draw, and sometimes str draw. If he is a lag fish - he would donk and continue pressing with 2 OC

Disclaimer - losing player last 3 days

Last edited by braveslice; Fri Sep 13, 2013 at 11:35 AM..
 
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Fri Sep 13, 2013, 03:33 PM
(#8)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
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Thank you for all your comments / feedback. Here's how the hand played out.

BR

Tony [aka Prodigy237]
 
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Fri Sep 13, 2013, 03:46 PM
(#9)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Well, yeah, that is why I am a losing player

Nice read.
 
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Fri Sep 13, 2013, 07:33 PM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Oh boy ... Timing tells to the rescue - nice call!!

I guess absent specific reads, maybe there's still that question is whether it's more typical for the average player in the zoom pool to be betting this small with small hands, or if it's more typical for the average player to be betting this small with a big hand? I used to call these mini-bets all the time, but yeah lately I've been entertaining the idea of experimenting with folding more instead of calling so much (I posted a sample hand in my Time Vault thread where I stationed it all the way to the river with KK ... d'oh!!)

Have been meaning to do a study of hands versus loose passives for ages to try and see if there's any patterns that emerge, but have been so lazy about it. Will post results in my Time Vault thread if (1) I ever stop napping long enough to make some progress on it, and (2) find out anything interesting

Cool hand - thx for posting!!
 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 02:51 AM
(#11)
DonkeyJez's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 64
Recently I have been focused on learning to bluff more on the turn and river in good spots.

With the weak looking bets and a scare card on the turn I think you could represent this with a smallish raise. If he calls your raise and bets the river then a fold is probably best but he would check the river with a marginal hand most of the time.
 

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