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5NL 6max Zoom – TPGK Can I bet river for value?

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5NL 6max Zoom – TPGK Can I bet river for value? - Fri Sep 13, 2013, 06:21 PM
(#1)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Villain: 29 hands, 19/15/0, WWSF 3/3, on flop AgF: 3/3, AFq=3/3

Pre: The plan was to 3B/fold to raise

Flop: small DB – No idea what that meant, but I figured this is situation where I am a lot of a head or lot of behind, so I decided to call (also the C was because I couldn’t figure out what he wanted.) Had he has a draw, he would have betted more? So Ax/KK/QQ/JJ type hand was likely.

Turn: Again small weak bet, but then again I couldn’t figure what he could have, so I called.

River: He check He has to be weak, right? So I betted and hoped a call with KK,QQ,AJ

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

Button ($12.69)
SB ($12.01)
BB ($5.71)
UTG ($1.98)
Hero (MP) ($5.14)
CO ($4.84)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q, A
UTG raises to $0.15, Hero raises to $0.44, 4 folds, UTG calls $0.29

Flop: ($0.95) 3, A, 8 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

Turn: ($1.35) 4 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

River: ($2.15) 2 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1, UTG calls $0.94 (All-In)

Total pot: $4.03 | Rake: $0.17

Last edited by braveslice; Fri Sep 13, 2013 at 06:46 PM..
 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 06:32 AM
(#2)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi braveslice,

I don't think I like the 3bet preflop vs UTG; Are we doing this as a bluff or for value? Given villians stats and position, I think calling is better because we fold worse and get called/raised by better. Our hand is strong enough to call and see a flop against his entire opening range.

As played, I think I'd plan to call down all 3 streets when he leads the flop with an SPR of 1.6. I'm not sure what he does this with. I don't think its a big mistake no matter how we play this hand post flop given that we have TP with such a low effective stack to pot ratio. Yes, I think I would bet the rest OTR for value against AJ/AT type of hands.
 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 07:35 AM
(#3)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
My logic in 3b was following: He will raise all better hands: KK,AA,AK(sometimes QQ) he will call the rest. All hands but QQ I have position and ~50 equity with intiative. True he will fold bad hands, but UTG there is not really to many of them and even those - like small pairs - I would not get any value anyhow OTF. He would play them only when he has me beat.

I'm sure there is a mistake in that logic, but can't really see where.

Last edited by braveslice; Sat Sep 14, 2013 at 07:47 AM..
 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 12:10 PM
(#4)
Low Rated's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 114
Hey brave.

In terms of calling to keep worse hands in - villain could be opening UTG with hands like KQo/JQs/AT+ and in cases like these where you both share a 1P hand you will have him beat because of your kicker.

A 3-bet from MP vs UTG opens reps enormous strength and most of the time you will fold out all those hands you beat and only get action from better hands which can lead to reverse implied odds - and that can get nasty in the worst way.

If 3-betting UTG opens from MP is a spot you like to take then I suggest doing it only for value from the top of your range or with hands will little value from the bottom of your range. Just keep in mind that there are 4 players left to act. Try not to turn strong hands into bluffs or value own yourself. GL.
 
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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 02:40 PM
(#5)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Yeah, I need to learn more about that. I know that is what the books say (as a text book answer, without the inner grasp of the reason) , but I don't really see the transformation point for value 3b:s. I mean any 3b will fold the worst hands, you are only hoping you are getting called with worse than your hand in the same category of the hands? Hmm, maybe I got it now lol.
 
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Tue Sep 17, 2013, 05:49 AM
(#6)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi braveslive,

Lets take this opponent playing 19/15. I think we agree that UTG is the tightest opening range, and a standard opening range of a TAG will be something like 11.3% or { AA-22, AJ+, KQ, KJs, QJs }; Against that exact range we have 50% equity with AQs. Now what happens when we 3bet? We manipulate villains range by generally folding their worse hands and continuing with the top of their range. In this case they might continue with { JJ+, AK } and now we have 32% equity against that range! Their continuation range will also depend on our perceived 3betting range vs UTG; I sometimes only continue with QQ+ and fold AK and JJ!

Hope this helps!
 
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Mon Sep 23, 2013, 07:11 AM
(#7)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Ok, how about we go with geoVARTA’s range assertion and Low Rated’s suggestion adding bluffs. How do you like this?

Value range: {KK+,AKs} (54% equity, 1.21% of hands) against { JJ+, AK } 3bet continue range

Call range
: {77-QQ, AQ+} 4% of hands 55% equity against { AA-22, AJ+, KQ, KJs, QJs }

Bluff range: {AJs,KQo,KQs,QJs} (1.81% of hands)

I’m thinking that bluff range can’t be that much larger than value range. Total range played 7.8%. My bluff range is chosen with not understanding it. They are suited and have some blockers.

Last edited by braveslice; Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 07:15 AM..
 
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Mon Sep 23, 2013, 12:45 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I would flat those suited hands if he has aces or kings and you flop huge your getting his stack and why 3bet fold decent hands or let them fold pre and take a tiny pot i would rather 3bet value and total and utter garbage but i never do because i just thinks theres no need for it il 3bet some Ax and Kx as a bluff and fold a 4bet.

I don't see the point in 3 betting UTG from UTG+1 either with trash because theres to many players to act do it on the button when folded to you.

I don't know how often your 3bets are getting called but every time i 3bet everyone folds and my aces are useless i might start flatting aces especially vs BU when im in SB or BB because they fold every time at zoom.
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 05:45 AM
(#9)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Hi mike2198.

How wide you would call here? Hands we have greater than 50% equity are {88+,AQs+,AKo). If we go down to greater than 40% we get: {44+, A8s+,KQs,AJo+}

AJs I usually fold here, because villain only has better aces. So if I call A hight flop, I'm not getting action unless villain has me beat. Too much risk and not that much gain. So I thought why not turn this hand to a bluff, with A blocker.

KQs is a good hand, and I should probably just call. For bluffing purposes it has 2 blockers and again if I get action on later streets with TPMK (medium against UTG opener) I'm beat. KQo I could call, but KQs has 43% equity, and KQo has 40% equity.

QJs hmm no idea, but the equity is 39%.

I kind of agree that 3 bluff betting from UTG+1 is pointless in my levels, but then again, I need to learn this stuff cheaply and surely I need to do this later on higher levels. 3 betting against UTG shows enormous strength so I think it surely makes a great bluffing spot.

If he only continues with the ranges we talk here { JJ+, AK } 3.02%, from the { AA-22, AJ+, KQ, KJs, QJs } 11.31%, he will fold 73% of the time. We should be making profit 0.8bb with 3betting any 2 cards agains him.

I have not given any thought about the stack size here, he only have 40bb, but I have undertood everyone here is talking in general level.

Last edited by braveslice; Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 07:20 AM..
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 10:07 AM
(#10)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
Ok, how about we go with geoVARTA’s range assertion and Low Rated’s suggestion adding bluffs. How do you like this?

Value range: {KK+,AKs} (54% equity, 1.21% of hands) against { JJ+, AK } 3bet continue range

Call range
: {77-QQ, AQ+} 4% of hands 55% equity against { AA-22, AJ+, KQ, KJs, QJs }

Bluff range: {AJs,KQo,KQs,QJs} (1.81% of hands)

I’m thinking that bluff range can’t be that much larger than value range. Total range played 7.8%. My bluff range is chosen with not understanding it. They are suited and have some blockers.

Hey braveslice,

Adjustments should be made against different villains but as a general rule I'd go with

3bet Value range: {KK+, AKo} Sometimes Add QQ / Sometimes remove AKo
Call range: {QQ-22, AK/AQ} Sometimes Add AJs/KQs / Sometimes 3bet QQ
3bet Bluff range: {KQ/AJ} - only 3bet bluff against the right opponents
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 11:23 AM
(#11)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
He rarely has a 5 given the preflop action so i'd fell pretty comfortable shoving for value here.
 
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Wed Sep 25, 2013, 01:43 PM
(#12)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
great, ty, geoVARTA!

If you would be on the button, would you widen your call range? I’m assuming both 3b value and 3b bluff range would be the same? Maybe calling AJ,KQ (at least suited) most of the time?

birdayy, yeah I agree, funnily never though he could have 55.
 

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