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How to get to final table in MTT's

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How to get to final table in MTT's - Sat Sep 14, 2013, 02:15 AM
(#1)
oana1717's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 12
Hi ,
I got to the point where I get in the money reguraly but then it seems that I lose on any showdown ; if I'm short or medium stack and go all with AA,KK,AK and AO I lose to weaker or even marginal hands.What can I do ?
 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 02:18 AM
(#2)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
Play more marginal hands, so you can build a bigger stack.
That will be risky though and you might get knocked out a lot more often.
 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 12:00 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,831
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I agree with GamblingProp for standard MTT's.. you need to loosen up earlier. If a player blinds down to a small stack, even total trash hands will have the correct pot odds to be in a hand against a monster.

If it's a league game.. different story, due to a totally different strategy needed.

Good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 12:18 PM
(#4)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by GamblingProp View Post
Play more marginal hands, so you can build a bigger stack.
That will be risky though and you might get knocked out a lot more often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I agree with GamblingProp for standard MTT's.. you need to loosen up earlier. If a player blinds down to a small stack, even total trash hands will have the correct pot odds to be in a hand against a monster.

If it's a league game.. different story, due to a totally different strategy needed.

Good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)
Sorry guys, but it seems to go against the poker book of teachings...lol, where you need to play tight in the first third of the tournament, wait for opportunities and be very patient.
You then open up in the second third
 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 12:44 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
Sorry guys, but it seems to go against the poker book of teachings...lol, where you need to play tight in the first third of the tournament, wait for opportunities and be very patient.
You then open up in the second third
By earlier, I mean the 2nd third.. instead of just at the end.

John (JWK24)


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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 01:41 PM
(#6)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I disagree with everyone!

Accumulate chips at every opportunity BUT you have to have a feel for the table and players.

MTTs are like a boxing match, you spar at the start to get a feel and go to war later but if you already know an opponent then why spar


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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 04:01 PM
(#7)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
"You always lose" this is impossible in the long run I can assure you say you get your money in as 75% favourite over a very long term you will indeed win 75% its just that over the very short term luck can play a factor so the people getitng it in behind can and will win(and somehow the human brain remembers the bad stuff and overlooks the positive times when you win (as when you win you expected to win probably a higher % thanyou should so your not surprised at all with winning )

Lets say your flipping so its 50/50 whether you win or lose

Get a coin(this is boring to do but try it you might be surprised @ results) and toss the coin 100 tiems noting whenever it lands on heads

100 is not a large sample but you cant be tossing 1000's coins all day

After the 100 you will be very very close to 50/50 and the more you do it(ie the long term) it will converge on exactly 50/50 (assuming its a pure random toss and a fair coin)

Before it converges (wont get technical and go into standard deviations) so the shorter term results will fluctuate and vary and this is called variance

A quicker way would be to get 100 coins throw them on floor and count and as they are all mutually exclusive and independent events it will still work ie whether the first coin lands on heads or tails has no bearing on whether the next 1 lands on heads or tails

So yes you have more than probably been running bad and getting unlucky with the allins but you are due for some good luck soon

What I dont understand however is why it seems to come in waves ie you can have a whole month of seemingly running bad and then run like a boss for a while
 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 07:37 PM
(#8)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,355
Quote:
Originally Posted by oana1717 View Post
Hi ,
I got to the point where I get in the money reguraly but then it seems that I lose on any showdown ; if I'm short or medium stack and go all with AA,KK,AK and AO I lose to weaker or even marginal hands.What can I do ?
You're probably playing too tight overall, meaning you'll be short-stacked in the later stages, which means your shoves are more likely to get called, so your big hands will be more vulnerable. If you're short, then losing a race will cost you your tournament life. If you're more aggressive in the bubble period, you'll often have a stack that can withstand a hit when you lose a flip.

I'd recommend you go to Live Training sessions by the likes of Chewme1 and ahar010. You'll see them being very aggressive when the blinds get big; shoving all in with a wide range in order to steal the blinds and build a bigger stack. The push-fold stage of a tourney is crucial. At the lowest stakes, in my experience, players aren't shoving light anywhere near often enough, but you have to take risks if you want to go deep. Play tight early, but ramp up your aggression when the blinds get big.

Good luck!


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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 07:47 PM
(#9)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post

What I dont understand however is why it seems to come in waves ie you can have a whole month of seemingly running bad and then run like a boss for a while
This is totally dependent on the phase of the moon, the alignment of the planets and the date, place, and time of your birth.




P.S. I got this info from the Great Magnifico Himself.

 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 08:23 PM
(#10)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
hahhaha but i dont even know the time of my birth ...are the poker gods all knowing and all seeing ?
 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 09:58 PM
(#11)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,355
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
What I dont understand however is why it seems to come in waves ie you can have a whole month of seemingly running bad and then run like a boss for a while
"Seems" is the operative word. The human brain has evolved very advanced pattern-detection abilities, as it is evolutionarily "useful" to spot that some things are bad for our health, and some are good. e.g. If your caveman tribe kept eating poisonous berries and dying, if you didn't spot the pattern and stop eating the poisonous berries, your tribe would go extinct.

Since pattern-detection is hard-wired into our highly-evolved brains, we therefore can't help but look for patterns, even when there aren't any! The human mind has a great deal of difficulty dealing with true randomness, such as the way the cards fall in poker. Instead, people resort to superstitions and hunches, or they visualise monsters under the bed, or Gods in the sky.

I find it really interesting how "natural" cognitive biases can lead us to make incorrect decisions, but everyone suffers these biases to one extent or another. Seeing patterns among randomness is called the "Clustering Illusion".
See the following wikipedia pages for more info on some cognitive biases that many poker players struggle with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect


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Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Sat Sep 14, 2013 at 10:02 PM..
 
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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 12:52 AM
(#12)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
You can't FT a MTT (1000+ players) without picking up hands and running good to a certain extent.

You just have to make the most of the opportunities presented, and if everything comes together then there is not reason you can't FT a big MTT. However, playing 50 or so MTTs then complaining about not once FTing is a bit stupid.

Some pros go thousands of tourneys without final tabling, so i'd suggest to put in heaps of volume and eventually it will happen.

Of course, playing a weak/tight ABC game will make it hard to go further than a min cash. Abusing the bubble, and building your stack in the mid stages of an MTT is what can propel you to a deep run.

Remember, the guys with the high ROIs go for the win, because of the top heavy pay structures. This means taking flips and risking your stack around the bubble to give yourself the best chance possible

Last edited by birdayy; Sun Sep 15, 2013 at 02:32 AM..
 
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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 01:34 AM
(#13)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Hi,oana.

"How to FT MTT's?"

That's a good question.

Well,as you can see we've already seen responses from JWK,Sandtrap,Ovalman,Arty,Gambling Prop and birdayy...that's a pretty good group of very sound poker minds and they can't really come to anything approaching a consensus on how to best run deep and FT large field MTT's and there's a reason that they can't...because there isn't any magic formula or set in stone plan for doing this.

It's not like cash games,or single table and smaller field SNG's where certain tactics will garner you more positive results so long as you don't offset them with leaks elsewhere.

MTT's are a different animal altogether and the simple truth is that to run deep you're most likely going to have to be able to play TAG and LAG both,often switching from one to the other several times along the way. Maybe even mix a period of maniac and NIT in there as well.

Reason being is that it's going to take so many hands,in some many different scenarios due to stack size depth versus the blinds,effective stack sizes versus your opps,table dynamics (tight table,loose table,pretty standard mix but a spewy player in the mix...WHERE is the spewer in relation to us position wise...),info you may have on a player or more than one at a table,YOUR image (say you land on a table and have no history with anyone...and right off the bat you get dealt two great hands in EP and raise them both...now table is probably seeing you as aggro...and may react to that impression...how do YOU use this to your advantage...). TONS of different situations and factors go into the mix when we're playing an MTT and running deep.

Be flexible in your game,be keen on situational awareness (being just one step ahead of most of your tables in an MTT at this skill can reap huge benefits) and keep your wits about you no matter what.

These are the three biggest things to achieving MTT success in my opinion.

Oh,and make sure that you are properly bankrolled to play MTT's in the first place,so that you CAN play them properly to begin with instead of focusing on min-cashes.
 
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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 02:35 AM
(#14)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Oh, and don't late reg. Seriously. The amount of fish that spew off 150bb stacks with marginal holdings in the first few levels make it super profitable to play the MTT from the beginning.
 
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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 04:11 AM
(#15)
PINOY_HITMAN's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,717
Thanks for this very informative thread and well explained responses from PSO's different points of view.

Running good now and got a very practice yesterday in the Big Bang during near bubble period as a chip leader but made a mistake when i think twice shoving my 33 open. I shoved i think, 2 or 3 previous hands and got afraid of overdoing it and minimum raise and one of the blinds call and 2 broadway card on flop and decided to check it down and looking for showdown but oppo show weakness in me and he value bet the river, of course i fold and he show 22

Guess if you have stacks to spend, better be the aggressor. I tend to chips save on critical stage of MTT and give away 2-3 winning hands.

Hope i run good as well today and make all good decision and have enough cushion to withstand the bad beat along the way.

Good Luck to all grinders.

PH
.

Last edited by PINOY_HITMAN; Sun Sep 15, 2013 at 04:14 AM..
 
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interesting post - Sun Sep 15, 2013, 05:16 AM
(#16)
longhair180's Avatar
Since: Jul 2013
Posts: 2
I have played many MTTs and you are defo right about no stone cold way to make the FT. And your stratagy is bang on. I do have one question though. I have for some time now been trying to figure out at what level of byin and format the best poker is played. In other words to get way from the idiot gamblers that dont give a crap about win losse or draw. At present i think the best level of bying is 20 bucks plus or infact proberly higher. What are your views on this ?

Regards longhair180
 
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type of mtt - Sun Sep 15, 2013, 05:25 AM
(#17)
99contril's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 1
hi
I wd say go for big opening stack type games with slow blind increments. You will need to be good at staying focussed and being patient...
 
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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 08:02 AM
(#18)
wiltshireman's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,572
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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 08:58 AM
(#19)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
I am surprised we are still seeing answers. Meaning no offence but “How do I get to FTs of MTTs” is not a great question, as there is no definitive answer, if there was we’d all be doing it…

Assuming your question is how do I maximise my chances of final tabling then there are some helpful answers.
Essentially take every profitable opportunity to accumulate chips, make no mistakes and run very well. It is far easier to final table from any point in the tournament that you hold 2 x average chips rather than 80% because you have been nitting around early. A lot of the answers capture this (some don’t):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
Accumulate chips at every opportunity BUT you have to have a feel for the table and players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
You're probably playing too tight overall, meaning you'll be short-stacked in the later stages, which means your shoves are more likely to get called, so your big hands will be more vulnerable. If you're short, then losing a race will cost you your tournament life. If you're more aggressive in the bubble period, you'll often have a stack that can withstand a hit when you lose a flip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PINOY_HITMAN View Post
Hope i run good as well today and make all good decision and have enough cushion to withstand the bad beat along the way.

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
Oh, and don't late reg. Seriously. The amount of fish that spew off 150bb stacks with marginal holdings in the first few levels make it super profitable to play the MTT from the beginning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Oh,and make sure that you are properly bankrolled to play MTT's in the first place,so that you CAN play them properly to begin with instead of focusing on min-cashes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
Of course, playing a weak/tight ABC game will make it hard to go further than a min cash. Abusing the bubble, and building your stack in the mid stages of an MTT is what can propel you to a deep run.
Having a big stack means you can both place pressure on shorter stacks and survive getting unlucky. Put another way the more chips you have the easier it often is to accumulate more and we need a large proportion of the chips in play to make a final table.
It is worth bearing in mind that a style where you look to accumulate chips at every profitable opportunity, may not be more profitable overall than the more standard TAG early, slightly less TAG later advice. Accumulating chips regularly, playing table captain and ignoring bubbles is far from easy.
 
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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 04:43 PM
(#20)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
"Seems" is the operative word. The human brain has evolved very advanced pattern-detection abilities, as it is evolutionarily "useful" to spot that some things are bad for our health, and some are good. e.g. If your caveman tribe kept eating poisonous berries and dying, if you didn't spot the pattern and stop eating the poisonous berries, your tribe would go extinct.

Since pattern-detection is hard-wired into our highly-evolved brains, we therefore can't help but look for patterns, even when there aren't any! The human mind has a great deal of difficulty dealing with true randomness, such as the way the cards fall in poker. Instead, people resort to superstitions and hunches, or they visualise monsters under the bed, or Gods in the sky.

I find it really interesting how "natural" cognitive biases can lead us to make incorrect decisions, but everyone suffers these biases to one extent or another. Seeing patterns among randomness is called the "Clustering Illusion".
See the following wikipedia pages for more info on some cognitive biases that many poker players struggle with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect
yeah i guess there is variance and VARIANCE
 

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