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Big Bang Freeroll

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Big Bang Freeroll - Sat Sep 14, 2013, 02:59 PM
(#1)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
Hi I would like someone to tell me how I should have played preflop (inc bet sizing please)
flop
turn
and river

I know I messed up at least 2 but thats only aftr I seen his hand..im not very good at ranging yet (but certainly didnt have the hand he held in his range) but shud i have done?

Am I not allowed to turn my hand into a bluff on the river to potentially blow him off 2 pair or a set

Preflop the usual Eastern Europe countries were at the table was hopign for a reriase

And i did bluff at least twice in this hand (for a chnage lol as rarely bluff) - had bene reading an article last nigth on a forum

So am I not allowed to bluff here or is it inadvisable?

Oh I got accused of allsorts incorrectly during this hand wont go into details but I certianly not always married to AA just want to learn from this hand for the future

I had already planned to change how I play before the tournament (I have a witness)- bu t ho w many J combos are in his range compared to how many hands without a J on both preflop...the flop and the turn ?

Reads

VP:21 PFR:0
AF:0.2 WTSD/Won@showdown:60|67
STL:0|100
3B:0|0
CB:0|0 Hands:24

So I had him down as a Tight passive



What were his implied odds here?...I know it not infinite

Hope this works havent included the villains hand

Thank You

rolo
 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 05:39 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,827
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Hi rolo!

With AA (or any other hand I'm going to open with), I'm going to make a standard raise to 3BB+1BB for each limper. Being first in, I'll raise to 90.

The flop is a very coordinated one and I'm going to make a c-bet. A normal c-bet sizing against one opp is 1/2 pot, but with this being a very wet board, I need to up this to 2/3 pot, so I will bet 130.

The turn Q is a huge problem, as Jx now has a straight and it also puts a second flush draw out there. Honestly, I'm checking here and hoping to see a blank on the river. This board just crushes the opp's range and when I put this in pokerstove vs their 21% range.. I'm an UNDERDOG with AA.

The river makes it even worse, as it completes the flush. Just like the turn, I'm checking and hoping to get to a cheap showdown. As the underdog here, especially against a passive opponent that is sticking around, I do not want to give them more chips.

21/0 is NOT a tight passive, they're looser/passive. Tight passives will be in the 10/1 type range. I also agree with the 'married to the hand' comment, as AA needs to be check/folding the turn and river here since there are so many hands that crush AA in the opp's range.

Implied odds here are something I wouldn't even look at here. AA is totally polarized and is most likely behind here. I wouldn't worry about implied odds, because only a straight or flush should call a bet here and there are a bunch of those in the opp's range, and.. there isn't a card that can help AA vs a straight or flush.

Honestly, the two bluffs here, IMO, look really fishy due to the bet sizing. They don't look like the sizing that a made hand would have because they're too big and when something looks like a bluff.. it normally is.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 06:11 PM
(#3)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
So I like 3x (90) pre flop as it is a freeroll, don’t want to give weak villains the idea that it is cheap to call. I don’t really want multiway out of position with AA.
I think the flop bet is OK, I might make it just over half pot as sometimes we are already behind (JQ, sets, T9) and we don’t want to bloat a pot that we may want to get away from. That said I bet flop to get some value from one pair.
The turn card is just about the worst, given you think villain stats are worth citing after just 24 hands and you have him pegged as tight passive (I agree with JWK that 21% isn't tight), why not check and expect him to play honestly? That is what I would do.
Regards bluffing, you do not want to be bluffing when you have showdown value. Better to bluff with missed draws or when you think you can get villain off a better hand. On turn villain can still have some one pair hands, they fold when you bet, but you could check through to showdown and win pot if you do not bet.
On the river you are clearly bluffing, I assume that villain has more Jacks in his calling pre range than you do in your early raising range. For that reason I would not be trying to get villain off two pair or set because a) Jack is more likely b) who knows if villain is folding anything on river that he calls turn with?

Re Range I think around half his hands have a J after calling flop. For this reason bluffing is less advisable, when we are ahead of some hands in villain range I think bluffing becomes highly inadvisable.
 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 09:50 PM
(#4)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
Thanks u2 both talk a lot of sense here

Villain was from PSO but in the courses(which i havent completed yet) does it say with what hands should he be flat calling an early opening raise?

His actual hand was KJo no clubs or hearts and I didnt have this in his possible range

Stll learnign ranging I thought to call an early opening raise he would likely have a high pair or well any pair and some suited connectors....and AKs and o/s same for AQ and possibly AJs

My HUD says vp$ip 21 is tight i think when it gets to 23 or 24 it chnages to in between and around 30 it says loose

and a s Ihad him as TP i thought he could fold

I still think i go t veryunlucky goign from 87% equity preflop droppign to 68% on flop to 0 and 0..im using his exact han dhere gues si shud be using ranges

with ranges it becomes 85% droppign to and umm this is wher i findranging difficult

So Do i have to remove all the bogus hands he definitely wont be palyign from the 21% ? for example 66

I attempt it woahhh real eye opener now i see how strong his range connects to that board *Yikes !!* plu sextra unlucky he happens to have the nuts on turn...I use dont think oh i run bad but am begining to see a way out (honestly dont get married to AA) b t i had sent Pm before the game to prof awe sayin I wa s goign to try playing differently ....hoped to improve but by playing it bad learning so wil improve just doing it backwards lol

ive onyl dropped hsi range from 21% to arghh clicke d here and it disappeared grr ..but was around 18% or 18.6

One thing about pokerstove i dont knwo how to do is say i want to opt out umm lets sy u have KJs so theirs 4 suits ...can i opt out 3 of the KJs but keep 1 in?

in my old calulations wa s getting 45/55 underdog but now 41.4/58.6

does this sound reasonable?

that turn card was a killer..kinda sensed it at the time and thought oh i try to bluff on river

Was multitabling i know no excuse but taking me tiem to get used to it

In my defence regarding implied odds it was the villain who menationed this afterwards in th echat box sayng he had infinite implied odds....guess you would need to have an infinite stack size for that to be the case though

I may have to edit my HUD will give me more fishys...so what VPIP is tight please? obv i know 3 or 5 or 8 but what about 15?

Hey at least i got the continuation bet right (I was slightly unsure of even that)...lots to learn

note to myself must reread this tomorro as not all sunk in i bet and lots of gems in here

Thanks Guys appreciate it
 
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Sat Sep 14, 2013, 10:18 PM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,354
That flop is completely hideous for AA. The one good thing about it is you have the nut flush blocker/BDNFD.

KJo shouldn't be in a solid player's pre-flop range, but a TAGgy villain playing something like 15/10 will have all pairs, most SCs and some suited aces in his range. The villain's calling range smashes that flop. It's super-wet. Any J or 7 has an OESD, clubs have a FD, TT-88 has a set, T9/T8/98 have two pairs. You have to bet for value/protection, but the turn is a clear check-fold. Turning your hand into a bluff is a big mistake, especially against this opponent. He's super-passive, so is probably a calling station. Don't bluff a station!

Quote:
I may have to edit my HUD will give me more fishys...so what VPIP is tight please? obv i know 3 or 5 or 8 but what about 15?
My blog had some numbers for full ring cash games. These convert pretty closely to the early stages of an MTT. A 21/0 is a semi-loose passive for me. 15% VPIP is your standard full ring TAG.


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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 12:09 AM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,827
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KJs is a top 7% hand and KJo is a top 11% hand so both of these are well within a 21% player.

When looking at equities, you do not want to use the exact cards. You need to use their entire range and since this player is 21VPIP, you need to use a 21% range for them.

Your AA is ahead 65.4% to 35.6% on the flop... but... when the turn Qh is added in, the AA is a 45.9% dog.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 09:11 AM
(#7)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
One thing about pokerstove i dont knwo how to do is say i want to opt out umm lets sy u have KJs so theirs 4 suits ...can i opt out 3 of the KJs but keep 1 in?
On stove there is a 4x4 panel where you can select suits for any hand you just clicked on from the matrix, it is kinda bottom right but obvious.

Just because villain plays 21% does not mean he calls 21% to your early raise, I would assume if he has some level of competence that there are less than 21% maybe 10%-15% in his range for calling pre - and of course they wont be top 10-15% as he would raise top hands.

If this hand means you learn something about ranging and when to turn hands into bluffs (eg not here!) then valuable lesson learnt from a freeroll!
 
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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 12:02 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
While the sample size is small (24 hands) this guy has been crazy passive thus far, 0% preflop raise and AF 0.2... for me this makes the turn a really easy check/fold. The turn card is so terrible for us and interacts so well with his range, betting here is just burning chips imo. Check. If he bets, credit him for a jack and give up. The nice thing about this guy is if he's got 2 pair, he'll probably check behind and give us a free card to draw out on him.


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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 04:54 PM
(#9)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
Okay cool thank you everyone

Just attended Frosty012 training was 150vpp so couldnt type but it was fullring cash game table so thats like beginnign of a MTT right?

The exact same situation came up

He definittly said dont call an early position raiser with KJo.....my sound went bad he may have even said dont call with KQo but the KJo I definitley heard

So whats the difference? ok i know his post flop skills are a lot better and he was multitabling but kinda confused now only on this point....

Is calling an early positions opening raise with KJo +EV when deep please? say 50big blind stacks ish

gle
 
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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 04:57 PM
(#10)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Profess Awe View Post
that there are less than 21% maybe 10%-15% in his range for calling pre
Is this because of the gap concept ?
 
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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 05:03 PM
(#11)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
Is this because of the gap concept ?
IDK If the gap concept says calling range is stronger than opening range then yes.

re What Frosty said. I doubt that there is a stack depth where calling an EP raise with KJo is +EV. But just because we know not to play KJo there, does not mean a poor villain does not.
 
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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 08:42 PM
(#12)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,354
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
Is calling an early positions opening raise with KJo +EV when deep please?
The short answer is No. The hands you should call raises with are hands with good implied odds; hands that have a good chance to beat overpairs and TPTK, such as smaller pairs and suited connectors. Speculative hands like these are easy to play, because they either smash the flop (with a set or combo draw) or they miss. They therefore tend to lose small pots, but win big ones.
KJ (like KQ, AJ etc) is a classic trouble hand. It has "reverse implied odds", which basically means it wins small pots, and loses big ones.
Have another look at my blog about calling ranges. I even used specifically KJo as an example of a hand you should NOT be calling pre-flop raises with, because it's crushed by the range of the open-raiser. The villain in your hand obviously hasn't read my blog.


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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 09:21 PM
(#13)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
ok guys cool ty wil read blog

So if KJo is not +EV why do we include it in his range ?

sorry if this is dumb question ohh i get it it cos of his VPIP he doesnt know its -EV gotcha

about to post another hand completely different topic

Thank You Everyone
 

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