Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

Raise or call?

Old
Default
Raise or call? - Sun Sep 15, 2013, 02:32 PM
(#1)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

I dont know what to do here i felt i had to raise to try and get stacks in i was praying he had AK lol.
 
Old
Default
Sun Sep 15, 2013, 02:53 PM
(#2)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
I feel like both can be profitable, but since it's a SB, BB situation he is going to have more bluffs on his range.
So I'm calling turn, to usually check-raise river.
 
Old
Default
Sun Sep 15, 2013, 03:02 PM
(#3)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Good point il keep that in mind, without reads though i never expected him to be barreling the turn without a hand, i think he either had air and all his pairs KQ and what not that hes just barreling the A.
 
Old
Default
Sun Sep 15, 2013, 08:59 PM
(#4)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
We rep a super narrow range when we raise the flop (33, 55, most good kings would 3b), so I like raising the flop vs good players.

It can also induce rebluffs from the villain on such a dry board texture. Calling and raising the turn looks too strong IMO, especially when an ace hits.

Last edited by birdayy; Mon Sep 16, 2013 at 07:58 AM..
 
Old
Default
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 07:12 AM
(#5)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
All valid reasons guys! Whichever line we take is villain dependent. The line mike took is what I would usually go for being IP and against an unknown which I assume is the case if Mike didn't provide stats/reads.

Last edited by geoVARTA; Tue Sep 17, 2013 at 05:57 AM.. Reason: Typo: thanks taxi128 for pointing out
 
Old
Default
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 08:42 AM
(#6)
taxi128's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 245
I read most of these threads but seldom comment. But I have 2 Questions


Gambling----- how can he check - raise the river? When he checks the hand is over.



GeoV------ If he is Out Of Position (OOP) When are you considered to be In Position.


Triple Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 04:14 PM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
We rep a super narrow range when we raise the flop (33, 55, most good kings would 3b), so I like raising the flop vs good players.

It can also induce rebluffs from the villain on such a dry board texture. Calling and raising the turn looks too strong IMO, especially when an ace hits.
Hi Birday are you saying that im likely to get floated if i raise that dry flop so go for a check raise, what about the turn if its a blank are you checking or betting.

I guess your never raising here as a bluff then, whats the sort of board your raising with pure air or bottom pair then KQ5 or something like that?

What about if CO opens i flat on BU and the BB 3 bets CO flats and i flat, would you make a play on a 896 type board repping two pair+ knowing they likely have an overpair or giving up.
 
Old
Default
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 06:45 PM
(#8)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
This has all got a bit confusing.

As Taxi spotted, you're IN position. Villain can't really float OOP. He was the PFR. You can't check-raise because you're closing the action on each street.
Flatting the c-bet is fine. You could consider also flatting the turn, as there aren't a huge number of scary river cards, but I like raising the turn to set up an obvi-shove on the river if villain calls the turn raise.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 08:18 PM
(#9)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Hi Birday are you saying that im likely to get floated if i raise that dry flop so go for a check raise, what about the turn if its a blank are you checking or betting.

I guess your never raising here as a bluff then, whats the sort of board your raising with pure air or bottom pair then KQ5 or something like that?

What about if CO opens i flat on BU and the BB 3 bets CO flats and i flat, would you make a play on a 896 type board repping two pair+ knowing they likely have an overpair or giving up.
Dry flops like this one can be good boards to attack because it's likely to miss a raisers range. However, it's pretty obvious how dry it is, so some villains might 3b the flop or float us with A high once we c/r.

So yes, you can easily raise the flop as a bluff because our value range is so narrow.

896 would hit our bu flatting range harder than the squeezer, but it is likely because of the pot size that they will just shove over a flop raise, meaning our raise wth an OP rather than folding.

Last edited by birdayy; Mon Sep 16, 2013 at 10:22 PM..
 
Old
Default
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 11:06 AM
(#10)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
This has all got a bit confusing.

As Taxi spotted, you're IN position. Villain can't really float OOP. He was the PFR. You can't check-raise because you're closing the action on each street.
Flatting the c-bet is fine. You could consider also flatting the turn, as there aren't a huge number of scary river cards, but I like raising the turn to set up an obvi-shove on the river if villain calls the turn raise.
I just ment that flop in general if i was to raise that flop as a bluff would i get floated alot was what i ment and if that is true then i could just raise the flop with my set knowing im gonna get floated in future was what im getting at.

I guess alot of the stuff i come out with gets complicated its all this stuff im watching but not fully understanding these plays i see.
 
Old
Default
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 12:05 PM
(#11)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Mike, the way you played it is exactly how I would of played it
On the turn you NEED to raise
The board is wet for possible flush, straight and even a full house, therefore there's NO need in giving the SB an extra FREE card.

Good play
 
Old
Default
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 04:46 PM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Have been sick the last couple of days - not sure if my mind's back to functioning yet. Figured maybe I'd write some stuff down, go to the store, then come back and re-read it, and if it sounds really 'out there' then maybe I'll need to give it some more time


Blind vs blind, some people might choose to double-barrel this board with draws too?

- Kx
- Ax

Also:
- QJ, QT (straight draw)
- XcXc like 9cTc (flush draw)

Guess it'd be most EV to target Ax and hope to get paid off? Rather than wait for the river in hopes of getting a small 3rd bet out of Kx and Ax? Like, if all the draws miss on the river, maybe there aren't so many hands willing to call a river bet/raise, so better to hope the villain has Ax and raise the turn?

Will come back and re-read this in a bit lol ...


EDIT: Assessment - too patchy ... will leave it a day and hope things are better tomorrow ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Tue Sep 17, 2013 at 05:51 PM.. Reason: edited for clarity
 
Old
Default
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 11:21 PM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
Mike, the way you played it is exactly how I would of played it
On the turn you NEED to raise
The board is wet for possible flush, straight and even a full house, therefore there's NO need in giving the SB an extra FREE card.

Good play

This kind of bucks conventional wisdom, but ... I guess if, based on the villain's bet sizing, we felt like we could rule Ax out of the villain's range, and felt that the villain would likely check-fold to a river bet with Kx ... might there be times we might want to raise the turn with the best hand, even as the heavy favorite, to try and get a fold, since there'd be nothing to be gained by letting the villain see the river??



I'm trying to stay more in the box for 10nl, but maybe at higher levels it might be beneficial to sometimes go outside the box and this sort of move might come in handy? I don't know?
 
Old
Default
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 11:27 PM
(#14)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Have been sick the last couple of days - not sure if my mind's back to functioning yet. Figured maybe I'd write some stuff down, go to the store, then come back and re-read it, and if it sounds really 'out there' then maybe I'll need to give it some more time

EDIT: Assessment - too patchy ... will leave it a day and hope things are better tomorrow ...

Forgot to mention the bet sizing yesterday - that's something I'm still working on too

Like with the turn raise of $1.20 designed to be called by AK (and likely A3, A5), maybe there was a size that other Ax hands like A9-AQ might have been willing to call as well? Like maybe $0.95-$1.05? Or something?

Although maybe the villain didn't have Ax, so maybe that was the most $ to be made out of that spot?


Wish I hadn't had to add everything all piecemeal like this

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Sep 18, 2013 at 11:39 PM..
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com