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Losing OTB!

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Losing OTB! - Mon Sep 23, 2013, 08:16 AM
(#1)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Hi guys,

I thought I would share this as I don't know where I might be going wrong. If anyone could identify somewhere where I might be going wrong that would great.

So far this is the stats that I have when OTB:

Hands: 3,161
Net Won: -$4.29
bb/100: -6.79
VPIP: 21.8
PFR: 14.2
Agg: 1.3
3bet: 2.6
WTSD%: 25.7
W$SD%: 48.7
Flop C-bet: 59.2
Fold to a C-bet: 59.3

Anyone see where I might be going wrong, or is the sample size too small and that this could be due to variance?


Cheers,

Pullin
 
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Mon Sep 23, 2013, 08:32 AM
(#2)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
From a first glance you aren't 3betting enough and you are folding too much to c-bets.
But that's just my opinion, sample isn't that big, so it could be just variance.
 
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Mon Sep 23, 2013, 11:31 AM
(#3)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Aggression seems a bit off post flop.

Do you tend to fire off one cbet and then give up and check/call or check/fold?

I'd not be trying to bluff a calling station but there should be plenty of opportunity to barrel on certain boards. With that said, it's likely short term variance, there was a long stretch for me where I was profitable in the blinds and losing from the cut off and hijack. It's now corrected itself to what my playing style should lead to.
 
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Mon Sep 23, 2013, 02:07 PM
(#4)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Cheers guys,

I do think my cbetting is off. Also post flop aggression wise, I will cbet when missed, but then give up, so I do think there is scope to barrel say when I have a good draw, maybe even when I got AK, etc. what do you think?

Cheers,

Pullin
 
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Mon Sep 23, 2013, 05:20 PM
(#5)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Post some hands up where you dont flop anything, you might find someone can help you out.
 
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Mon Sep 23, 2013, 06:08 PM
(#6)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Are these stats for Full Ring or 6 Max?


Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 02:23 AM
(#7)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Sorry these are for full ring
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 03:08 AM
(#8)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by pullin1988 View Post
Cheers guys,

I do think my cbetting is off. Also post flop aggression wise, I will cbet when missed, but then give up, so I do think there is scope to barrel say when I have a good draw, maybe even when I got AK, etc. what do you think?

Cheers,

Pullin
Yeah, I think that makes some sense, I wouldn't go crazy with it but at the right times there is definitely scope for making these moves.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/articles/Bluffing-101

The link above is to one of Dave's training classes, and at the start he makes a significant declaration about bluffing and bluffing at the micro-stakes. Well worth watching. You have to know who your opponent is, if they are a calling station you should only be betting for value most of the time if you have totally whiffed, but if they are capable of folding, then you can consider betting multiple streets.

Dave explains the concept much better than I ever can of course. In fact, I am going to watch the video again now, because I am much in need of it myself.

Just to add - value betting at the micros is much more important than bluffing.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/lib...=Value+betting

Check these videos out too. The trainers are six max players but the same general theory applies. The games arent that different.

Last edited by bhoylegend; Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 04:09 AM..
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 04:08 AM
(#9)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
VPiP is a little high for full ring. I suspect your playing hands like KQo in middle and early positions, getting yourself into trouble and spewing chips.

Your Agg is also not so good as others have mentioned. You seem to give up or call to easy thus not maximising the spots where you are ahead.

These stats are fine for 6 max BTW although your 3bet and agg need to be a bit higher.

Tighten up a little, bet hard when you hit and keep betting until someone shows resistance.


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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 05:27 AM
(#10)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Just so everyone is aware, These stats are for on the button only. My overall vpip stats, etc, are different. More close to TAG 14/10. I'm making money in those spots, so all seems to be good; however, there could e room for improvement and make more money, but yes just to reiterate, this button stats only. I won't play KQo early or MP1, but maybe MP2. Does that make things clear?

Thanks for all your help.

Cheers,

Pullin
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 06:01 AM
(#11)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Thinking about this in more detail, am I right in thinking the following with regards to stats alone.

On the button in general it's good to open a lot wider than in other positions. Therefore I would assume that because you are opening a lot wider and positionally aware villains are aware of this, then I think that the cbet stat should be a lot lower in this position. I think around average for a TAG is about 50%ish? But that is more than likely an overall stat. I am aware that my cbet numbers for all positions are all roughly the same, for which I don't think this should be so.

For instance, if in UTG I am only playing say TT+ (it's not, but good for an example), then you are likely to fire a cbet 100% of the time becuause your nitty in this position. The opposite would apply for the being on the button. I would think that you cbet should probably be a lot lower than what my stats indicate, maybe even lower than 50%, because if any opponent calls then chances are I am more likely to be behind, given that the villain will be out of position. Thinking about this further, this might be different since you have position on villain. Any flaws in what I have written.

Obviously this all goes out the window if you know a particular villain cbetting/cbetting folding ststs, because you would adjust to what you know.

I am currently playing zoom for which I don't currently have a great deal of stats on villains at the moment due to a big pool of villains.


Cheers,

Pullin

Last edited by pullin1988; Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 06:04 AM..
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 06:06 AM
(#12)
Roslyn_akka's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 263
To mee vpip and pfr look VERY low for BTN. Maybe thats just me?


Double Bracelet Winner

 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 06:22 AM
(#13)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
They do indeed look low, but I think that it might be because that I appear to always face either a raise or a limper and therefore stealing goes out the window, so I tighten up, or do you think that this is still low given facing a raiser and limper. Thanks guys I appreciate the discussion.

Cheers,

Pullin

Last edited by pullin1988; Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 06:24 AM..
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 08:03 AM
(#14)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I read the OTB bit of your post and guessed it was On The Button but I still assumed these were overall stats and not just from the button.

I'm a STT/ MTT player but I understand the importance of position. There should be a smooth progression between playing the least amount of hands in early position to playing the most amount of hands when you're on the Button.

Ignore what I told you above as that was for your overall stats. I think you're playing too tight on the button but your not maximising your chips when you get a hand. Loosen up a little pre flop and bet harder when you hit.


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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 08:08 AM
(#15)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Cheers Ovalman

Pullin
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 10:19 AM
(#16)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi pullin,

Generally we need to be playing most of our hands IP. And the BTN is the best position at the table and we should show the highest winrate from that spot to cover for the losses from the blinds. Here I would have the highest 3bet % from all other seats, If not then very close to what you have from the blinds. Our 3bets coming from in position will help us win more pots post flop with initiative . Typically we want to be 3betting CO/HJ seats here. Ofcourse we need to be careful about who we are attacking.

I sometimes go as far as opening 50% of my BTNs in six max. But I think that this should not be any different from fullring because we should be stealing a wide range from the BTN when its folded to us so that we can put pressure on our opponents post flops by cbetting and double barreling, sometime even 3barelling.

I think your cbet is pretty low from that position.
It would be good if you can provide your Fold to 3bet stats, Turn cbet, and W$WSF. Also include Steal% or RFI in HEM2
I see your not winning when you are going to showdown so it seems your taking too weak hands to the river - then again this is just 3K hands so it's a very small sample to come up with a conclusion.

To get a better understanding where you are going wrong, I'd look at two things: 1. When the pot was raised before us and we call and 2. When it was folded to us and we go for the steal raise

Last edited by geoVARTA; Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 10:24 AM..
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 11:45 AM
(#17)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Cheers geoVARTA,

I will supply this information as soon as I can (some time later on tonight). I appreciate the help.

Cheers,

Pullin
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 02:50 PM
(#18)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Hi guys,

More stats

OTB Stats

VPIP: 21.9%
PFR: 14.2%
Flop Cbet: 59.7%
Turn Cbet: 25.8%
3bet: 2.56%
fold to 3bet: 77.1%
W$WSF: 34.7%
BTN Steal: 30.8%


Hero OTB preflop actions unopened

Net Won: $0.51
VPIP: 31%
PFR: 30%
3bet: N/A
fold to 3bet: 77%
WTSD%: 28.1%
W$SD%: 56%
Flop Cbet: 54.2%
fold to Cbet: 75%
Turn Cbet: 38.5%
W$WSF%: 34.8%


Hero OTB preflop actions 1 raiser, raiser + caller(s), 2 raisers

Net Won: -$6.37
VPIP: 14.1%
PFR: 2.47%
3bet: 2.56%
Fold to 3bet: N/A ??? Is this right
WTSD%: 35.5%
W$SD%: 44.2%
Flop Cbet: 64.3%
fold to Cbet: 58.8%
Turn Cbet: 0%
W$WSF: 31.4%


Cheers,

Pullin
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 05:37 PM
(#19)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
I think the stats you posted in the top post are fine for a newbie to FR 2NL. Variance definitely played a part in this small sample.

The number that really sticks out is W$SD%: 48.7. On the button, acting last, your decisions should be easiest, so you should generally have the best hand if you decide to see a showdown. This could indicate that you're finding it hard to lay down one pair in position, but equallly you might just be getting coolered, when villains bink the river with flushes/straights and two pairs.

The stats in post #18 show that you should be getting out of the way or squeezing when there is a lot of action in front of you, as playing passively post-flop will not be profitable.


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Wed Sep 25, 2013, 03:30 AM
(#20)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Pullin,

As Arty points out, this is a small sample and its subject to variance. But if I were to look at the numbers in vacuum I could say that we are not opening our BTN enough. 30% is kind of on the low end, but if your not comfortable yet playing post flop I suggest you add one category of hands at a time to your steal range.
Your fold to 3bet of 77% from that spot is pretty high too. It makes 3betting you with any two mathematically profitable. The breakeven point of a 3bet is 67% fold to 3bet. So I would start looking at hands to call 3bets IP (AK, AQ, AJs, ATs, KQs, KTs, QJs, JTs, JJ, TT, 99) and add some 4bet bluffs with blockers (Axs, Kxs, Qxs).
Your W$WSF is low also which means you are not finding good opportunities to cbet and double barrel (you probably need to look into your post flop play)

You might want to read my blog posts on stealing and restealing here and go through some of the lesson videos on PSO for the same:
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/blo...cessful-steals
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/blo...ief-of-thieves

As preflop caller, two stats stand out. 3bet% is low, like I said in my previous post we want to do most of our 3betting in position. When we are only 3betting our premiums, people will pick up on that and fold whenever we raise. The second stat is W$SD%, it seems you are taking too weak hands to showdown when you should consider folding them earlier or turning them into bluffs. Make sure to keep in mind that our calling range preflop should be stronger than villains opening range. So don't call with a hand like KJo or QJo vs a MP open, 3bet or fold instead.

Hope this helps!

GL at the tables!
 

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