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Playing AA or KK deep stack in NLHE

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Playing AA or KK deep stack in NLHE - Mon Sep 23, 2013, 02:55 PM
(#1)
Tyirl's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 389
I feel that with big pocket pairs and deep stacks I will either end up winning a small pot or losing a large pot (in relation to the blind level and not all in preflop), and it seems like that has born itself out to be true in my experience. It could just be in my head though. I would honestly prefer to have a hand like JTs, 89s, or 55 etc when deep stacked and the hand gets past pre-flop. I'm very happy to have AA or KK when the effective stack is 15-20 blinds deep in a tourney and can just get it all in pre, but otherwise they just seem like crap, lol (and yes I'm really serious about this). I guess it's just because I don't play well, but it's how I feel about big pocket pairs right now. This has led to me playing scared or sometimes making bad folds post flop with AA or KK.

Any ideas on what to do about this? Am I somehow actually correct in my thinking about big pocket pairs?

Thanks for any help

Last edited by Tyirl; Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 02:58 PM..
 
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Mon Sep 23, 2013, 05:32 PM
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standard preflop raises (3BB+1BB for each limper) with no raises prior. If there are raises, I need to raise to between 3X the previous bet and a pot-sized raise.

Postflop, I need to bet enough to price out all of the possible draws.

Good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 09:34 PM
(#3)
Tyirl's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 389
Ok, thanks for the reply John

I was hoping for a more in depth response here. Perhaps an opinion from anybody on the realistic value of big pocket pairs versus a hand like T9s when deep stacked and the hand gets past pre-flop , but I guess people see a post like this and just automatically think it means "Oh! I always get drawn out on when I have AA " or something similar, lol. I feel like I used to over value AA and KK, but now I may be under valuing them so I was hoping for some insight please.


It seems that with a hand like T9s people usually wont put in tons of chips unless they have two pair+ or a pair and a great draw, but with AA or KK they will put in tons of chips when all they really have is one pair (yes, an overpair to the board usually, but still only one pair). This makes me think that a hand like T9s or 55 will be more likely to win a large pot and lose a small pot while a hand like AA or KK will lose a large pot and win small pots when deep stacked and it gets past pre flop unless it's a cooler like when you get set over set. Is this wrong thinking?


I am not talking about when you get all in pre flop like this hand:







I am talking about a hand that gets past pre flop like this hand:







Thanks so much for any help



P.S.- I wasn't sure what forum to put this thread in so if there is a better spot for it please move it there, thanks

Last edited by Tyirl; Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 10:29 PM..
 
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Tue Sep 24, 2013, 11:18 PM
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ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
It depends on what you class as a "deep" stack. In cash games, 100bb is a standard buy-in, and it's perfectly normal to stack off pre-flop with AA/KK for 100bb. I'd be just as happy to get it in with 150bb with KK, but probably not 200bb. If a flop is seen, then commitment is based on the stack to pot ratio. If the size of the pot is less than about 8 times my remaining stack, I'm committed to getting all in with an overpair. In tourneys, stacks are usually much shorter to start with, so it's easier to get committed post-flop. Indeed, if you start the hand with 15bb or so and flop an overpair it would be a mistake to fold your hand, due to pot odds and the fact that an opponent can be pot-committed with a worse hand.

In the second hand you posted, the villain with AA started with 100bb. He made a standard raise and got called in two spots. With the pot at 100, and with 970 behind, the SPR is 9.7 to 1. He should not be committed to his hand with this SPR. He should consider folding if he gets raised. His turn bet means a lot of his stack is in the middle, but the Baluga theorem applies: "If you get raised on the turn, re-evaluate the strength of one pair hands", with the implication being that you should consider folding. One pair is almost never good in this precise spot, so he should fold his overpair. If the pot was much larger, then he'd be committed to getting all in, but here I think a fold is best, although it's close.


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Wed Sep 25, 2013, 01:22 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Hi Tyril!

In the KK, the first thing to look at is the size of the 3-bet... it's too small. With 3 opps in the hand already, a standard sizing is a pot-sized raise (or even slightly larger). Due to this, I'm not raising to anything less than 290. Raising smaller gives the opps lower pot odds, which prices in many more hands that can try to outdraw me. If I give them the right odds to try to outdraw me.. then I deserve to lose the hand, as the play is +EV for the opp.

In the 75 hand.. same thing on the flop and turn. On the flop, the opp bet 60. I can call here, however I'm much better off raising and a standard raise is to 3X their bet.
On the turn, when the opp bets 140, my raise has to be to between 3X their raise and a pot-sized raise. If I raise to less than 420, then I can be giving them the right odds again and if I do so, I deserve to lose the hand.
The opp in the hand absolutely needs to muck the river here.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Wed Sep 25, 2013, 11:59 PM
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Tyirl's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 389
Alright, thanks guys.
 
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Fri Sep 27, 2013, 06:20 AM
(#7)
Tyirl's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 389
So, I watched the stack to pot ratio training sessions and the commitment training session and found those to be so very helpful to increasing my understanding of what I was trying to ask about here. It was funny because in the commitment training session it seemed like Dave was talking about exactly what I was struggling with. Back when Black Friday hit I was just starting to have a little bit of success with low buy in S&Gs, and felt like I was starting to be able to play them in a winning fashion. I even got 2nd on one of the leader boards one month to get a ticket to that "Battle of the Planets" tourney (which I got destroyed in), but I always got eaten alive if I tried cash games. I just labeled myself a "tourney donk" and had no idea what to do about it. I haven't played much poker since Black Friday until a little over a month or so ago, but once again I found myself really struggling when deep stacked like at the start of a couple of those PSO play money tourneys a couple of weeks ago. For instance in the main event one I think we started with 300 big blinds, and I was out of it in the first or second level. After watching those training sessions I can see now that I have always basically been trying to play deep stacks in the same way as I normally played while in S&Gs which start with 75 big blind stacks and quickly get much shorter.


Earlier in this thread I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyirl View Post
It seems that with a hand like T9s people usually wont put in tons of chips unless they have two pair+ or a pair and a great draw, but with AA or KK they will put in tons of chips when all they really have is one pair (yes, an overpair to the board usually, but still only one pair). This makes me think that a hand like T9s or 55 will be more likely to win a large pot and lose a small pot while a hand like AA or KK will lose a large pot and win small pots when deep stacked and it gets past pre flop unless it's a cooler like when you get set over set. Is this wrong thinking?

Now I think that the basic answer to my question above is: "Yes and no.", and it depends on whether or not they are thinking about stack to pot ratios or especially if they are considering commitment thresholds at all. My thought at this point (which still may be completely wrong) is that someone using these tools will still not win super large pots with AA or KK specifically in a hand that is not more than 3bet pre with stacks sized to something like 150 to 300 BBs, but they will win small and medium pots while being able to get away from losing large pots (unless it's some kind of set over set scenario where they could win a very large pot). I would suggest those training sessions to anybody who hasn't watched them yet, by they way .


Thanks again guys, and I will also start making my 3bets larger

Last edited by Tyirl; Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 06:39 AM..
 

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