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$2,20 Big Game (turbo) AKs is this a Call ?

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$2,20 Big Game (turbo) AKs is this a Call ? - Fri Sep 27, 2013, 06:13 AM
(#1)
brettnz's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 377
Hi AKs in the Big $2.20 its a turbo so clicks along SB200 BB400 so im less than 10 BB deep Big stack that shoved before that I called had a VPIP 67 but very small sample Im about 1K under average stack,newish to the table only about 15 hands,everyone playing ABC from what Ive seen lots of small stacks shoving and table folding
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=CCB440F125

So is this correct call with AKs or is it a fold ?
ps hope I got the relay link correct
Regards
brettnz


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Fri Sep 27, 2013, 08:30 AM
(#2)
raccy's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 130
It looks like your stack is over 18BB?

That's a hard spot though. You'll have to go all-in if you call plus you've got four players acting after you, two of whom have you covered (SB, BB). Even though your chances of being eliminated here are at least 40%, or more if you end up flipping, I'd probably make a bad decision and call without a second thought.
 
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Fri Sep 27, 2013, 08:36 AM
(#3)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by raccy View Post
It looks like your stack is over 18BB?

That's a hard spot though. You'll have to go all-in if you call plus you've got four players acting after you, two of whom have you covered (SB, BB). Even though your chances of being eliminated here are at least 40%, or more if you end up flipping, I'd probably make a bad decision and call without a second thought.
It's not bad decision for me.
 
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Fri Sep 27, 2013, 12:29 PM
(#4)
taxi128's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 245
short stack raises to 900 (not all in ) that to me means he has a good hand--QQ--KK--AA at least AK. looking for a call
Big stack next to him re-raises all in. He should know this as well but still goes all in. He got to have a pretty good hand to do that and there are still 3 players + first raiser to act after me. Ace high is beat for sure and possibly one of them has pkt AA or KK so I have few outs. Not really a hard fold with 18+ big blinds left to find a better spot.


i'm surprised vil. 7 folded and vil. 8 only had a pair 10s put them on bigger hands.


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Last edited by taxi128; Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 03:02 PM..
 
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AKs FOLD/CALL - Fri Sep 27, 2013, 03:47 PM
(#5)
brettnz's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 377
HI TAXI yea ,as soon as I replayed it I decided it was a fold to ,quess it just looked so pretty and I thought at time "if I hit this Im set" lol stupid logic .I use the MZONE not the basic stack / BB so I looked abit sourt than 18 BB about 12 MZone ( this is the calculation on tournament Indicator) seems more usefull to me but Im still adjusting ti it.But anyway that aside it was a bad call ,your correct


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Ak call/fold - Fri Sep 27, 2013, 03:48 PM
(#6)
brettnz's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 377
TY ,Ithink I got it wrong .


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Ak call/fold - Fri Sep 27, 2013, 03:52 PM
(#7)
brettnz's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 377
HI TY you seem to be thinking same as me and taxi on review ,thanks for input ,and love the fact even after you come to same conclusion you still say you would have called lol ,just shows when in the game and little time with pressure we do rule with the heart and hope lol


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Fri Sep 27, 2013, 09:55 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettnz View Post
HI TAXI yea ,as soon as I replayed it I decided it was a fold to ,quess it just looked so pretty and I thought at time "if I hit this Im set" lol stupid logic .I use the MZONE not the basic stack / BB so I looked abit sourt than 18 BB about 12 MZone ( this is the calculation on tournament Indicator) seems more usefull to me but Im still adjusting ti it.But anyway that aside it was a bad call ,your correct
I honestly think that calling in this spot with AKs is really totally read dependent. If we have either of the players acting before us pegged as nits who are only going with JJ+ and AK here then yeah,it's a crying fold for me.

If we have them both wider than that...too much equity in that pot to pass up for me.

This is why bankroll management is so important...so when a spot comes along where we have great pot equity and a hand that holds solid hand equity (even though we may initially be behind...) we can call and max out our tournament results the times we do hit and not sweat the misses as much. Even if we only scoop 30% of the time here we're getting such a great return on the wins,plus the tourney EV we get from now having a stack that can set us up to run deep,that it's worth the call.

Here's a good link on "M" and tourney "Q" as well...pretty easily explained.

www.learn2holdem.com/poker-strategy/m-q-ratio-in..
 
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Fri Sep 27, 2013, 10:28 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi all,

Personally I would snap it in here. I agree with Moxie, if we had reads that they were only playing super tight ranges then meh, but that's not the case here (@taxi, you're giving them way too much credit imo). It's a $2.20 tourney... the opener not shoving on a 9bb stack and doesn't necessarily mean he's got a monster, it's more likely that he just doesn't have a clue what he's doing in a micro stake event (confirmed when he raise/folds this stack size). And V8 shoving to isolate him has voluntarily played 10/15 hands since we arrived at the table so I would never expect this to be a tight iso range. And it's a turbo, which means time is fleeting... under 20bb's I'm going to need a very compelling reason to lay down AKs in a turbo, and this spot isn't it. I don't think we can ever afford to pass up edges like this with under 20bb's in a turbo.


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AKs Hand - Sat Sep 28, 2013, 04:20 AM
(#10)
brettnz's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 377
TY Moxie ,reason I called at the time was because it would have put me in a great spot for rest of tourny just as you said. Just didnt have enough hands on table to lock them as nits or lags ,think less than 10 hands ,had just changed table ,so anything but basic HUD stats and my reads were thin. And thats why I thought after it was afold because I just didnt have the info
Thanks for inout
Regards
breetnz


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AKs call/fold - Sat Sep 28, 2013, 04:30 AM
(#11)
brettnz's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 377
Thanks Dave ,I guess the nit in me gets me thinking after I get sent packing from game.Im proberly giving villians to much credit to often in micro stakes all round,will look into this . I understand now that if I play that hand the same in 10,20 30 tournys Im more often than not going to come out on the right side of it .cheers
And yes I choked when small stack folded (was sure like Taxi he must be trapping with monster) ,certainly gave him the yellow colour code and made a note for future
Regards
brettnz


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My final statement - Sat Sep 28, 2013, 04:37 AM
(#12)
brettnz's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 377
just reread all your comments and replys ,I flip flopped with each reply LOl
Ive decided I am calling because Im going to get there often enough and be set up to run deep.
Also I should give credit for hands and good play so much at these stakes. If I was still on 40 BB I would fold .
TY all for help


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Sat Sep 28, 2013, 05:05 PM
(#13)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettnz View Post
Thanks Dave ,I guess the nit in me gets me thinking after I get sent packing from game.Im proberly giving villians to much credit to often in micro stakes all round,will look into this . I understand now that if I play that hand the same in 10,20 30 tournys Im more often than not going to come out on the right side of it .cheers
And yes I choked when small stack folded (was sure like Taxi he must be trapping with monster) ,certainly gave him the yellow colour code and made a note for future
Regards
brettnz

You may only come out winning the hand 1 in 3 times,maybe more,maybe less. Can't account for the KK hand,if that happens that happens. It's just that the reward for when you do will so outweigh the times when you miss.

We now know that Villain 7 is a stone idiot---you simply CANNOT be raising 25% of your stack here and then be folding,they're on a push/fold stack,period. Villain 8 we can give some credit I guess,but even though it's a small sample they HAVE played 2/3's of the hands we've seen...so I'm in no way assigning them a nitty range here.

Toss the KK out of the equation since our decision is made on the action in front of us...Villain 7 opens for 900,Villain 8 shoves...we're calling 7430 into what will be a 16,810 pot with no further action to come. IF the players left to act after us all fold it back to Villain 7 we're making this play being pretty much 100% sure that their last 2625 is going in the middle here...can't really anticipate someone being as brain dead as they were to open for 900 and then fold.

So in essence it's going to cost us 7430 to call into what we reckon will be at least a 19,435 stack. That makes our pot equity 38.23%. If we give them both a 10% range (which is pretty charitable of us really...given the putrid play that Villain 7 makes and the fact that Villain 8 has played 2/3's of the hands we've seen...) then our hand equity is 40.38%,so it's close,but a +EV call. We can tighten Villain 8 down to 5% (88+,AJs+,KQs,AKo...that's it) and still have 34.67% equity,so slightly -EV.

Personally I would have to have good reason to ever range anyone that tight in a $2.20 game and the action's of these 2 players would not be anywhere near the kind of reason I'm looking for to do so.

The stark reality of MTT's is that we can NEVER min-cash enough to be profitable in them. The money is weighted at the top so deep runs,final tables and top 3's (then SHIP IT FTW!!!) are what we're looking for,results wise. That means we HAVE to do three things above all else:

1: Be properly bank rolled to play for the win.

2: Be capable of gambling it up when it makes sense and take flips,trying to build big stacks.

3: When we have a stack,know how to use the power that gives us to steal chips without showdowns.

Greg Raymer made a quote once along the lines of that in his opinion the single biggest mistake most amateur/beginner types make in MTT's compared to experienced/successful MTT players is that the former group tends to fold too many hands that they really shouldn't.
 
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Sun Sep 29, 2013, 03:25 PM
(#14)
taxi128's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 245
I read what everyone said and if I was CLOSING the action with only v7 left to act I would probably call this but not the way it sits on this table I still fold.

I put myself at the table and with everyone folded and just v7 left to act I would call with AK but not with 3 others to play yet and the initial raiser still to act. With 18+ big blinds ( IMO ) it's not worth the risk of being knocked out here by calling with A high.

you can't win a tourney in the first 2 hours but you can lose it.

I read that somewhere


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Last edited by taxi128; Sun Sep 29, 2013 at 06:46 PM..
 
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Sun Sep 29, 2013, 09:56 PM
(#15)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxi128 View Post
you can't win a tourney in the first 2 hours but you can lose it.

I read that somewhere
This is in reference to monkeying off a deep stack early in an event. We have less than 20bb's in a turbo against 2 ranges we expect to perform very well against. It's quite a bit different.


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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 02:16 PM
(#16)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 101
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Snap call, you have AKs, this is a turbo tournament (obviously that's not total gospel but for the most part you're not going to accumulate chips folding AKs sub 20bb in tourneys!). You can't account for the guy with kings behind that's just unlucky.

There are definitely situations where depending on the action and icm considerations we can fold ak pre, this aint one of em, fist pump get it in!
 

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