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A Q&A spin off / calling all-ins 3-way with premiums

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A Q&A spin off / calling all-ins 3-way with premiums - Sat Sep 28, 2013, 08:59 PM
(#1)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
There was a question in training about calling two all-in shoves with KK?

Discussion develops but in my experience it has been a losing option to call with premium hands in multi-way pots basically for your tournament.

Anyway I did go against my gut feeling twice in the same Fifty50 tournament both in 3-way pots first with:

AA vs two under pairs

and then with

AK vs two Ace rags

So basically it's bingo 50/50.


Result was 2nd place for $14 but it cost me, in the end result, losing $10 equity in chips making the AK call.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Sat Sep 28, 2013 at 09:18 PM.. Reason: result
 
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Sat Sep 28, 2013, 11:29 PM
(#2)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
I missed the training, but I'm pretty much never folding AA except in particularly strange circumstances, such as a satellite in which I'm guaranteed to win a ticket by folding every hand. KK is usually playable in all circumstances too (including when faced by a double shove), except perhaps in some fifty/50s on the immediate bubble when winning chips will add little to my net winnings. AK is significantly weaker than AA and KK. I've lost count of how many times I've folded AK in multiway pots in regular tourneys, let alone fifties or satellites. I'm not really sure why some people treat AK like it's the nuts. In the long run, it only wins heads up flips about 50% of the time. Aces and kings have winrates in excess of 80%.


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Sun Sep 29, 2013, 01:26 AM
(#3)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Thanks Arty,

I get what your saying. In this format game is very critical.

Your post - this came in on email and I can't get back to the forum with the random 404 errors.

Using another browser

My tweet that you did very well against 3 million is genuine respect. My social media skills are lacking.

@tag or #tag oops - I hope someone @ millions of fish understands.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Sun Sep 29, 2013 at 01:28 AM..
 
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Sun Sep 29, 2013, 07:47 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Hi Forrest,

On level 1 of a tournament (still deep stacked) AK is much worse facing multiple all ins, and I am folding it here quite easily in many cases. It's too often that someone has the worse ace or another AK (sharing your outs), while someone has a pair, putting you in bad shape. If you're up against AK/AQ and 88 for example your equity is only 27% and you're contributing 33% of the pot. If it's an event with a fast structure and all kinds of insanely bad shoving on level 1 (the example we used was a freeroll or .10c 360-man), then AK performs much better and we can consider it. We didn't discuss AK during the strategy Q&A, so not sure why you translated the discussion of KK to AK, but I hope this helps clarify.

BTW, against those same hands (AK/AQ and 88) AA has 71.6% equity while KK has 55%, both very +EV calls.


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Last edited by TheLangolier; Sun Sep 29, 2013 at 07:52 PM..
 
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Sun Sep 29, 2013, 07:56 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForrestFive View Post
but it cost me, in the end result, losing $10 equity in chips making the AK call.
Don't be results oriented. vs. 2 ace-rags your equity is 55%, it's a great result even though you didn't win this individual hand. They key is to assess their ranges and make the best decision based on that. If they're loose/crazy or we have that expectation (like in a freeroll or .10c 360) then calling with AK is fine. If we expect more sane stack off ranges, then folding the AK is better.


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