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Making a 3-bet Shove into Another Big Stack - Good Idea? Too Reckless? :D Pt 3

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Making a 3-bet Shove into Another Big Stack - Good Idea? Too Reckless? :D Pt 3 - Wed Oct 02, 2013, 10:11 PM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Have another spot involving stack management, but this time my stack and the villain's stack were about the same size.


The villain and I were about top 15 or so (?) with about 150 players left. But this was a Regional freeroll satty, where only the top 9 received tickets to the finale (where the 1st place finisher would receive a pair of hockey tickets).

I'd been top 10-15 pretty much the whole tourney because I was the big stack at my last table, but had gotten moved to this new table a couple of orbits ago, and it was much more LAGgro, so I was having trouble finding spots to chip up.


My read on the villain was that he overvalued TP, liked to re-raise when his TPNK was vulnerable to getting outdrawn, and was quick to stack off with those TPNK type hands (sample size of only one hand though)

If we were to play for stacks, and I were to win the hand, the double-up would move me up to about 4th place. But if we were to play for stacks and I were to lose the hand, I'd pretty much out of contention.

And, oh ... this is the first time I've played this tourney, so not sure how much longer the tourney was likely to last, but blinds were 10min long.


Think that's everything So here's the hand:




Thanks so much for the help everybody!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 10:16 PM..
 
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Wed Oct 02, 2013, 11:11 PM
(#2)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Why open-limp from the button?
 
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Wed Oct 02, 2013, 11:18 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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What would be your reason for raising? Remember, I stated above that this table was highly LAGgro.

Something I didn't mention before was that I wanted to play this hand because I was thinking blinds and antes were worth fighting for?
 
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Wed Oct 02, 2013, 11:26 PM
(#4)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
I try to help just to see if when the expert arrives see if i got half correct

Ok 1 hand = no read really

the effective stack is 50 big blinds and in sattelite we need to survive 1 chip can sometiems be enough

As trumingjoe states why the limp but on this flop I dont like your play i love it...no way to get away I dont think if he happens to have a set then its a cooler and as you quite rightly pointed out we need chips to get into top9

However as UTG limps I may not choose to play this hand only thing going fo r it is we have position

hope you won and enjoyed the hockey

edit his ck raise does look strong but you did say was aggro table

Last edited by rolo834; Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 11:29 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 01:55 AM
(#5)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
What would be your reason for raising? Remember, I stated above that this table was highly LAGgro.

Something I didn't mention before was that I wanted to play this hand because I was thinking blinds and antes were worth fighting for?
Hello, the first reason to raise : don't give BB free flop, second: to avoid MW pot, third: to take pot OTF without hitting it .
and I don't fold this flop, there are a lot of hands that you beat and only a couple that beats you.
Did he called your shove with a draw?
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 03:07 AM
(#6)
TrustySam's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shichi-77 View Post
Hello, the first reason to raise : don't give BB free flop, second: to avoid MW pot, third: to take pot OTF without hitting it
Typing this on my iPad with my finger, but I didn't raise for the same reason I once folded AA pre-flop, and twice raised with 72 in 60,000 hand ... the spot was an exception to the rules, such that I felt to limp was the most EV play. Both villains had 100% VPIPs, and weren't folding to standard-sized pre-flop raises from anybody because they liked to see flops, so raising was just goingmto bloat the pot rather that thin the filed. Also, both of them Id seen check-raise, and re-raise light, and utg was also a bluffer, so the plan was to see a flop and play for value, but be ready to get chips in with lighter holdings that were likely to be good, rather than expecting people who aren't inclined to fold, to fold.

I'd been dying to get into position versus these two, and 98o is like a top 30% hand, so it's ahead of their ranges, but not so strong that I was willing to risk like 5-6bbs to try and get one of them to fold pre-flop.

Wasn't sure if it would have been better to just call, rather than shove?
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 03:29 AM
(#7)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Typing this on my iPad with my finger, but I didn't raise for the same reason I once folded AA pre-flop, and twice raised with 72 in 60,000 hand ... the spot was an exception to the rules, such that I felt to limp was the most EV play. Both villains had 100% VPIPs, and weren't folding to standard-sized pre-flop raises from anybody because they liked to see flops, so raising was just goingmto bloat the pot rather that thin the filed. Also, both of them Id seen check-raise, and re-raise light, and utg was also a bluffer, so the plan was to see a flop and play for value, but be ready to get chips in with lighter holdings that were likely to be good, rather than expecting people who aren't inclined to fold, to fold.

I'd been dying to get into position versus these two, and 98o is like a top 30% hand, so it's ahead of their ranges, but not so strong that I was willing to risk like 5-6bbs to try and get one of them to fold pre-flop.

Wasn't sure if it would have been better to just call, rather than shove?
I prefer not to play at all with such kind of opps with weak hand. you'll get 2 pair monster just 2% of the time and if they don't fold to cbets and you can't take a pot without hitting it's -EV for me. Pot is large enough to shove there, it's more than a half of his stack. Shoving OTT is unavoidable
and limping isn't LAG play.

Last edited by Shichi-77; Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 03:35 AM..
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 12:37 PM
(#8)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
I just played a similar tourney and after getting a biggish stack I nitted up far too early. I managed to get to the final but only after surviving an all-in on the last hand! So I think it is a good idea to try and chip up at this stage.

I can see the logic of limping in this situation because it was the the same in the tourney I played, some of the opps just wanted to see the flop so raising only bloats the pot, and we don’t want to do that with 980o.

If we are playing 98o as a value hand here then when we hit the flop like that I think we have to go with it, else there is not much point in playing it. Can't see the point of calling OTF, shoving is good IMO.
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 01:48 PM
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AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
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fold pre - as played, stacking off seems fine, we pretty much lose to one value hand.

Last edited by AceKingBlows; Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 01:51 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 05:43 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Hey Rolo, and Swaxwell - thanks for the support

Swaxwell, great to see you back!!


This hand turned out to be a lot more controversial than I anticipated. This strategy of actively going after blinds is something I saw a couple of tourney grinders doing in a WBCOOP satty - and this might surprise people, but it was actually the two LAGs who wound up winning the seats to the target event. And what people might find even more surprising, after getting a look at their stats, is their track record when it comes to playing tourneys - their pokerprolabs results are spectacular!


(my blinds stealing stats were high from a previous table - I wasn't getting much chance to steal at all at this table)


Like I guess this thread has kind of turned into a debate over the legitimacy of this strategy of playing LAG to grab the blinds/antes to maintain one's stack, rather than playing tight/patient and waiting for good cards?

Like it sort of seems like maybe there's that threshold question that might be coming into play, before even getting to my attempt in particular to actively go after blinds. Like if people don't see this as a legitimate or +EV strategy, that's fine, but ... I don't think that's a universally-held belief?

Like I guess there's a lot of different ways to play poker, and ... this is just a different way of playing that I've been trying out lately for size. Nice to try out new things I think - and it was a freeroll, so ... the price was right for learning


Some advantages to playing more LAG as a big stack is that you can put pressure on the little stacks when their tourney life's on the line without yours being on the line in return, and with a LAGgy table image people are sometimes willing to call down lighter because they can't tell when you've got a real hand.

The big thing that was different with this spot is that there were 3 of us with big stacks, so I wasn't sure if it would have been better to keep the pot small, even if I felt I was ahead - like versus a stack that could bust us, would it have been more prudent to try and play a small pot but just calling and hoping for a turn card that might kill the action, rather than putting all our eggs in one basket? Like maybe I could have gotten the same benefits from playing for a pot half the size (possibly becoming chip leader, possibly getting to show that I'm playing a wide range, etc), with less risk?


Thanks so much for the great discussion so far everybody - lots of different angles to consider!

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:18 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 11:47 PM
(#11)
ChewMe1's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 574
Hey TrustySam

I think calling pre is ok but I'd prefer to isolate who we perceive to be a fish by putting in a raise and taking it down with a cbet on most boards but limping is ok. Folding is ok too but if we believe that the villain is a fish and will stack off lightly then then I would prefer to play the hand rather than fold it, especially as villain is 50+ big blinds deep.

I would however fold the hand with anything less than 25 big blinds because 89o is the type of hand where we will often catch a small piece of the flop which we will feel we have to call at least 1 bet with and before you know you have have half of your chips in the middle which is a gnarly spot we ought to shy away from.

As played I can't see us folding, the only hands I'm worried about would be pocket 3's or some kind of combo draw like J10cc and given our read that villain has been known to stack off with TPNK we can't fold, if we fold to him we may aswell be flushing our money down the toilet.

I think with the reads we have on villain I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him fold to the shove or even call with a hand like J9 or something whacked out like that.

Cheers, Chris.
 
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Fri Oct 04, 2013, 12:01 AM
(#12)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post

Swaxwell, great to see you back!!

Thanks Sam, nice to be back too. I have been browsing your tourney blog and there is alot of good stuff there.

Also a nice evaluation by Chris on the hand in question.
 
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Fri Oct 04, 2013, 12:20 AM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
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Posts: 8,291
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Hey Chris!!

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't be looking to grab my share of the blinds and antes with less than 40bbs - have been trying to learn big stack strategy from watching others



From the bet sizing ... I wasn't totally sure, but it just seems like most people re-raise smaller with super strong holdings, so I wasn't so concerned about a set. And I didn't think anyone would commit so much of their stack with just an open ender and overs with a hand like JT. So I kind of felt, combined with my read, that the villain's most likely holding was probably 9x - in which case I was like an 88% favorite?

But like I usually play cash games right, so if it's the villain's 1 in 9 time to win the hand, my stack just auto-reloads In a satty tourney, as an 88% favorite, where we only need to make top 9, and have no interesting in trying to get to 1st, would you be shoving here or just calling and hoping like a Kx would come on the turn and kill the action (and hopefully not make the villain a better 2pr)?


Here's the rest of the hand - LAGgro check-raised and stacked off with 97o and made a straight on the river, and I was out soon after that:




Re: my read on the villain - does not fold:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
My read on the villain was that he overvalued TP, liked to re-raise when his TPNK was vulnerable to getting outdrawn, and was quick to stack off with those TPNK type hands (sample size of only one hand though)
*****

I kind of get the sense that everybody's having a hard time getting past the fact that my hand is 98o, such everybody's having a hard time putting themselves in my shoes. But I only invested 1bb of 50bbs, looking to flop some sort of pair plus combo draw, 2pr, or trip. And then I based my decision to stack off on my equity relative to the villain's most likely holdings.

Maybe an analogous TAG spot would be if you're the big stack, and you know that the other big stack is very aggressive with bare flush draws, and you hold a hand like KK and he reraises - even as like a 70% favorite, would you just call and want to see the turn, or would you reraise an stack off, knowing you only need to make top 9, and not try and come in 1st, and that you'll lose the hand some of the time?

Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 12:47 AM..
 
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Fri Oct 04, 2013, 12:23 AM
(#14)
TrustySam's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swaxwell View Post
Thanks Sam, nice to be back too. I have been browsing your tourney blog and there is alot of good stuff there.

Also a nice evaluation by Chris on the hand in question.
Hey, thanks swaxwell!!
 
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Sat Oct 05, 2013, 02:27 PM
(#15)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
I kind of get the sense that everybody's having a hard time getting past the fact that my hand is 98o, such everybody's having a hard time putting themselves in my shoes. But I only invested 1bb of 50bbs, looking to flop some sort of pair plus combo draw, 2pr, or trip. And then I based my decision to stack off on my equity relative to the villain's most likely holdings.

Maybe an analogous TAG spot would be if you're the big stack, and you know that the other big stack is very aggressive with bare flush draws, and you hold a hand like KK and he reraises - even as like a 70% favorite, would you just call and want to see the turn, or would you reraise an stack off, knowing you only need to make top 9, and not try and come in 1st, and that you'll lose the hand some of the time?
I don't think the hand itself is such a big deal, but if you think the guys "a spot", raise to iso. It's going to be much easier to take it down postflop when you don't flop gin ( as in this case :P) personally I would fold 89o, but if I were going to play it i'd raise.
 
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Sat Oct 05, 2013, 02:57 PM
(#16)
TrustySam's Avatar
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Posts: 8,291
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It's kind of my fault for not being able to clearly explain my reason for limping before, but I guess what I was trying to do with my limp was ensure that I was getting the right price to play my speculative hand. Shichi said we only make 2pr 2% of the time? So I was paying 1bb to hopefully make 50bbs from at least one, if not both, of the two in the pot. And the plan was to NOT c-bet with less than 2pr or a trip, like not even with TP, especially if the board was draw-heavy.

C-betting might have worked. I guess my concern was if they both didn't fold - and we were fairly deep by tourney standards, so with their 100% VPIP and history of not folding to pre-flop raises - the pot would get jacked up to 10bbs. Then you'd be having to bet into 2 people, hoping for folds from both.


This is kind of counterintuitive, but I really feel like the most conservative way to play two really aggro players is to stick strictly to value. And since I didn't have a value hand pre-flop, I attempted to make one post-flop for cheap. Like I felt the implied odds were there.

Also, passivity at beginner levels like 2nl is very different from passivity at beginner levels just a couple of steps up like at 10nl. At 2nl it tends to be a leak with most players. By 10nl it's a tactic most people use for very specific reasons, like to mask the strength of their hands and confuse aggressive opponents. And these two villains were really aggressive post-flop, if not pre.

But maybe a c-bet would have gotten these two to fold at some point rather than raise - that's how I play hands in position the vast majority of the time

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 03:05 PM..
 
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Sat Oct 05, 2013, 03:11 PM
(#17)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
And since I didn't have a value hand pre-flop, I attempted to make one post-flop for cheap. Like I felt the implied odds were there.
Well in a sense the result would seem to justify your logic but I have to think that generally speaking, Implied odds being reliant on your oppenent also making a strong hand to pay you off when you flop huge, this isn't a spot where we can really assume we have the necessary quotient. I guess your description of the villain and their tendencies post flop marginally improves the situation but their weak range combined with our hands limited post flop potential still speaks to a fold, in my eyes. If i were going to limp in this spot, i would prefer to do it with a hand like 44 or JTs (though even those i would almost always lean towards raising :P)
 
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Sat Oct 05, 2013, 03:28 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Posts: 8,291
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Remember I'd seen this player stack off with TPNK before - maybe because this was a freeroll? Also, only the top 9 places got a ticket?

Would have been awesome to have been dealt 44 or JTs!! Wish that had been the case


EDIT: You know what though - I've only gotten comfortable playing these sorts of opponents because there was no escaping them at my regular game. They're kind of stressful to play against because they're constantly jacking up the stakes. So I can totally understand why people would prefer to have much stronger hands, or try and maintain initiative.

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 03:38 PM..
 

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