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45 man SNG correct laydown right or too tight ?

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45 man SNG correct laydown right or too tight ? - Wed Oct 02, 2013, 11:09 PM
(#1)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
Hi have had some major computer probs for 3 days fingers crossed all fixed now..but my game gone rusty so can someone confirm i this wa s a good laydown please ?

Oh you will need some stats

Initial raiser had been maniac

VP:60 PFR:27 AF:2.8 W:50|40 STL:100| 3B:22|0 CB:100|0 Hands:15

guy who goes allin stats

VP:47 PFR:7 AF:6.0 W:33|50 STL:|0 3B:0|0 CB:100|0 Hands:15


I kinda knew i was ahead of the maniacs range

Was my reriase a good size ?

Was my laydowna god laydown ?

Thank you

rolo

edit hmmm I had QQ this must be wrong hand sorry



this is now the correct hand sorry @ first it was showing I had JJ somehow

Last edited by rolo834; Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 11:13 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 12:18 AM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
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Hi rolo834!

With QQ in the SB, I get a standard raise to 300 in front of me and I'm definitely going to raise. The key is how much. A standard raise is to 3X the previous bet (900) but this bet basically pot commits me, so that means that if I make the bet I cannot ever fold. I also do not want to raise to less than 900 or I can be giving the opps the right odds to try to outdraw me... something that I absolutely want to avoid.

Against two players that are maniacs, since a raise to 900 would come really close to pot-committing me, I'm going to 3-bet shove preflop. I want all of their chips in the middle before they could possibly see a card that beats me. If they do call a shove and outdraw me, so be it... that's why I want to follow good bankroll management and have 100 buy-ins... I want my chips in here preflop.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 01:59 AM
(#3)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
Hi John

Thank you

It did cross my mind to go allin but then i thought its a lot to shove 29bb....or at first i thinking 2900 to win the 300 but was 450 in pot

Guess im improving slowly with your help...as at least the shove did cross my mind

The small break has made me play worse..I know I dont play perfectly at the best of tiems but at moment im not even playing MY "A" game

In the end i made a good fold(results oritated i know) as shover had JJ but now i realise I think it bad fold as you say allin pre is best

By you explaining to go allin it proved to me one thing and that is all monies should been got in preflop so huge pot and im a 80% favourite oops im doin it again im doin it with his exact hand and not range..so much to think about and remeber havent got c betting down yet...well anyways still proved ot me that I was ahead of his range bya lot of % and it would have then been a bad beat...but then i mustnt get results orintated as i got money in good if i played it your correct method

It crossed my mind that they would reshove/bluff me thats why i raised less than normally and that Ace was bad card

Have 2 videos on my to do list next its a longggg list but i think i put that pot committed video of Daves back on list ...first tiem round didnt get my head around it fully hopefully this time i will

Thanks John

rolo
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 03:22 AM
(#4)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Yeah rolo,JW's right. You HAVE to shove pre-flop here,raising that much of your stack and then folding to a sticky flop and bet on that flop is pretty gross. If villains call our shove we're going to have players with these ranges crushed most of the time. Bring it on!!!

Hell,you may have been folding to a Jack or a semi-bluff on a flush draw here.Neither one would surprise me after you make such a weak stab at the pot with that 100 bet post flop.
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 12:09 PM
(#5)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
Interesting spot this and I think I have played hands like this in a similar way to you.

I have some troubles when playing with these stack sizes...we raise to 800 here and folding leaves us with 20bb which is still ok in terms of the tournament, but if this is a turbo then the blinds will be going up soon so we will have 13-14bb. And shoving 30bb here can somehow feel a bit wrong, not sure why, maybe we think we can extract more value out of our hand by raising?

But I think the point that JWK and Moxie are making is why would we ever want to raise/fold in this situation. We are ahead of our opps ranges and and by shoving we are in a great position to double up or collect the dead money. Are we ever going to fold to a shove after we raise? Probably not, so why not just shove then?

Anyway I am just rambling a bit because I have been in spots like this many time, so thanks for sharing the hand, and thanks for the feedback John and Mox, very useful.
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 01:59 PM
(#6)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 101
BronzeStar
I like the way you played this preflop (don't min bet OTF tho, not accomplishing anything), unless you have a read that these guys are calling all ins with any two cards they deem pretty. Reshoving for 30bb is almost certainly going to mean we miss out on value in the long term imo. We have queens, we want action.

I'm not saying it's out of the question to ship 30bb, if you feel strongly that you'll be called then by all means, do. Personally i think doing it as a default smacks of monsters under the bed.
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 04:16 PM
(#7)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swaxwell View Post
shoving 30bb here can somehow feel a bit wrong, not sure why, maybe we think we can extract more value out of our hand by raising?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceKingBlows View Post
Reshoving for 30bb is almost certainly going to mean we miss out on value in the long term imo.
Been mulling this over and I’m not sure where we lose value by not shoving here, especially when you consider this...

A lot of players at this level (myself included) have a tendency to fall in love with their pretty pictures pre-flop, and having raised with them they don't want to let them go. So with quite a lot of their range (which we are ahead of) they will be calling a shove almost as often as a standard 3-bet. However when the flop comes and the pretty pictures miss its much easier to let them go and so we can't get any more chips, but when they hit we are more than likely behind and stand to lose chips.

So we might lose value when shoving by folding out stuff like 98s, which we can expect to be ahead of OTF, or when the villain might stack off to us on a 9 high flop, but I'm not sure they are folding enough pre-flop to our shove to make it less profitable than a standard 3-bet.

Does that make sense? Not sure sure if I'm right about this but I am intrigued to know how we can get more value by not shoving here.
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 05:06 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
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Hi swaxwell!

It's simple... we will get the most value by shoving. Yes, there will be some times when they will fold and we just take down what's already in the pot, BUT, on average, we will end up ahead because when they call for max value preflop (before they see a card that can beat us).. we win more chips at a higher % of the time.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 10:09 PM
(#9)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
wow thnx everyone when I have a clear head I will reread this i promise..also have a video to watch when my mind is clear

Just to give you "the way I think" in these spots which I have now realsied why and how wrong I am (cos JWK first post)

I never consider them actually callin an allin if I were to go allin...I think oh they will fold they think I have AA ...and so I dont want to lose value

As it is so I kinda trap them but now I do see the problem with this as I end up trapping myself or making it toughrer to play

The main problem was the gameflow this tight player had become a large stack and he was going nuts...thats why I tried trapping him but then felt so sure one of them at least had an Ace and would raise if they did have

ok fogs lifting now i go tmy thoughts down

ty moxie and yeah the big stack had been calling smaller allins with allsorts 88 55 AJ

@swaxwell yeah I didn not plan on folding but then i folded and thougth to myself must post this hand could prove useful to me and community...no way im folding preflop v manaic...im now guesisng another reason for shoving is incase of what actually happened..im in 2 way pot and A on board

very true if they shove i wasnt folding like ever..oh wasnt turbo i hate turbos

I agre AceKing but in this exact scneario are you callin his allin with 2nd pair ?.....i personally now like JWK/John advice more and more

In th eheat o fbattle i didnt know if they woudl cal an allin but thinking about it they both loose so probably one of them woudl at least(knowing h ehad JJ reckon he would of)

so glad you al chipped in tothe discussion and tried to think it out an dhelp me...swaxwell you ramble all u want ...I think you think like me but you get the right answer where I get the incorrect one

I had been very patient waiting for a god hand and wanted in my mind to double up and thought if i went allin they would fold very often

The allin guy happened to have JJ and as im runnign bad he hit his2 outer no matter what I woudl have done

Posted this thinkign oh I played well to survive and now realise how wrong I was

This isnt really in reply to any of your kind posts just had to get it outta my head and down on paper

Shouldnt really say im running bad as the last 2 times I had AA someone had KK and I held both times (one was in play money though)

Last edited by rolo834; Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 10:24 PM.. Reason: fog cleared
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 11:57 PM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swaxwell View Post
I have some troubles when playing with these stack sizes
Totally relate to this - sooo awkward!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
I had been very patient waiting for a god hand and wanted in my mind to double up and thought if i went allin they would fold very often
I've done this before, when somebody's not likely to call - although that wound up getting awkward when the bb called too - although the A on the flop wound up saving your stack, so ... I don't know

Sometimes I shove too - still trying to figure it all out as well, so it's interesting to hear different points of view ... thanks for posting the interesting spot Rolo!! Not an easy spot, for sure
 
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Sat Oct 05, 2013, 11:42 AM
(#11)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 101
BronzeStar
Hey Rolo,

No, as played i'm not calling his all in /w 2nd pair, I would probably make a painful c/f in this spot. I still think you made a superior play to shoving preflop, there are tons of hands that will absolutely not continue vs an all in that may peel and stack off when they flop a piece (Think ATs on a T hi flop, or countless others) occasionally we'll lose or make a painful fold but I think we'll get more value in the long term.

Just my opinion
 
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Sat Oct 05, 2013, 02:48 PM
(#12)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
Thank You AceKing i welcme al opinions

Just cal ed allin Ak in SB PSO member in satty shoved they had KQo...and i just knew Q was coming just runnignbad recntly...but why is it always that tormenting river..watch out im due some run good
 
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Sat Oct 05, 2013, 03:24 PM
(#13)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 101
BronzeStar
Keep sticking in as a favourite = $$$! Keep up the good work
 
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Sun Oct 06, 2013, 09:01 PM
(#14)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
its true that ty...have built up a roll by playing solid(well solid for me)

its just all the bad beats seem to come in same month hahahaa and it annoying yet have to look at it in long run

plus tournaments are a bit like a saleman on commision

One week no bonus and other weeks you get bonus

i need to take a leap into higher buyins ($2 or 3 i mean not 200 !) but must learn more before doing so although half the tutoring wil come from gainign the experince of playing against better players me thinks

I will dedicate mor etiem to reading as im half way thru courses on here and videos

good luck on the felts
 

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