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50c 45 first hand, AK unsure on every street.

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50c 45 first hand, AK unsure on every street. - Thu Oct 03, 2013, 01:16 PM
(#1)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...126_121F7BB6CF

So this is the first hand of a 50c 45 turbo and I have no reads on the villain.

I c-bet the flop as I don't think it could have hit him that hard, and I can still get called from worse unpaired hands. But do I bet enough to price out flush draws?

The flush comes on the turn but I continue my aggression, should I shut down here as I only have A high? Was my bet size ok?

The river puts me in a tricky spot, I have now paired my hand but a single heart beats me. I was considering making a small bet to continue my strong line in the hope of folding out a small heart, but allowing me to fold to a raise. Would that have been a good line?

As played shut down on the river because I thought I was probably behind and was going to fold to a bet, but when he shoved I was tempted to call because it was such a big bet that it looked bluffy, what do you think?
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 01:46 PM
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AceKingBlows's Avatar
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Giving up OTT here, as played river is a trivial fold no need to hero off your entire stack.

Only barreling spades/paint OTT fwiw.
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 03:49 PM
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Hi swaxwell!

With AKs in the SB, when I get one limper in front of me, I'm going to make a standard raise to 3BB+1BB for each limper or 80 chips.

The flop is a pair with flush and straight draws. Since I raised preflop, I'm going to make a c-bet on the flop. Bets postflop need to be sized based on the size of the pot, number of opps and board texture. With one opp, a standard size is 1/2 pot (unless I think the opp can have a combo draw, in which case I need to up this to 2/3 pot). I'm going to discount 24h or 46h from their range and bet the standard 1/2 pot or 90 chips. I want to keep all of my bets standard to conceal the strength of my hand. If I bet 90 here with anything I'm going to bet, the opp doesn't know if I have one pair, better or worse.

The opp calls the flop bet and with this, the turn is a big problem. They should only call with a pair or a draw and the 7h completes every draw but one. Since they called the flop bet and I got this bad of a turn card, I need to check and fold to any sizable bet. The only turn cards where I would make another 1/2 pot value bet (note that I said value bet and not c-bet) would be an A or a K. I would not bet only a spade draw here. Players that would bet a spade draw here are going to end up giving themselves the wrong odds to draw to the flush, which is why I'd check a spade and fold to any bet that prices me out.

The river card is even worse, as while I do have two pair, with 4 hearts and a possible straight too, I need to check/fold on the river.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 04:22 PM
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Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
Thanks for the feedback...yeah I should have probably given up OTT considering the horrible card. The river still has me thinking though...why not bet smaller and give me the chance to call with AK?
Was he bluffing or just going for max value?
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swaxwell View Post
Thanks for the feedback...yeah I should have probably given up OTT considering the horrible card. The river still has me thinking though...why not bet smaller and give me the chance to call with AK?
Was he bluffing or just going for max value?
If I had the made hand, I'd want the bet to look as fishy as possible... to get called by a lesser hand.


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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 10:39 PM
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rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,423
Hi Swax

Not read JWk answer or any so heres my thoughts just to see if im learning/progressing really a s I kno w it says this is closed

preFlop:perfect raise and sizing

flop i like c bet but maybe make it 120

turn here i struggle but I would say take a pot control line and ck...he has limp called a raise and calle don that board so he should have apair or a flush draw..possibly 2 broadways(as you played it be size is ok if your repping a flush or fullhouse so then you would have to fire the river)

river as played I think its an easy fold.

edit ohh I did ok with this 1 finally gives me some hope

Thanks for sharing !

rolo

Last edited by rolo834; Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 10:41 PM.. Reason: comparing results
 
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Thu Oct 03, 2013, 11:46 PM
(#7)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
Nice work Rolo, not just a pretty face
 
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Fri Oct 04, 2013, 12:00 AM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swaxwell View Post
The river still has me thinking though...why not bet smaller and give me the chance to call with AK?
Was he bluffing or just going for max value?
The ranging of unknowns is always so tricky - hard to know of he was just bluffing, or had a flush and got excited, or had a boat and was hoping you had a flush. Sometimes it seems to be any of the above depending on the person?

lol Poker's never dull that's for sure Thanks for the interesting hand swaxwell - always looking for chances to work on my ranging of interesting spots
 
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Fri Oct 04, 2013, 06:39 PM
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rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,423
hahaha its Charlotte Church and she sure is preeety
 
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Sat Oct 05, 2013, 12:34 PM
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AceKingBlows's Avatar
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Tried to post this several times and keep getting dc'd grr! :p

There is more that goes into the decision to barrel the turn than simply "are we pricing ourselves out to draw to our flush". For a start, if we bet, we set the price. We have a chance to draw to a pretty strong well disguised hand (I'm thinking of rivering TP as much as I am a flush and would be absolutely 3 barreling any A/K for value) AND we're going to produce not insignificant fold equity vs his range. Let's say opp peels flop /w 22,44, 88 or a similar one pair hand, turn Qs, Villain = ??? Obviously this is an extreme example and Qs is one of the best cards for us to barrel (aside from an A or K as JWK mentions)but vs this range a second barrel on most spades is still going to produce decent fold equity. I'm not saying let's monkey off and make some huge 3 barrel bluff when we miss, but staying aggressive often pays dividends in these spots in my experience.

I think it's understandable to a certain extent to promote a passive approach to this situation (and given the early stage of the tournament, I'm certainly not implying i think it's "wrong" to play it that way) but I personally believe that c/f'ing a turn that likely gives us a pretty chunky slice of equity unless we are laid the correct price is a mistake and too weak in general. Imo, we need to build our stack any way we can (within reason! :P) we can't hang around waiting to crush a flop or cooler someone as a reliable method of chipping up.

Just my 2 cents and all totally academic given the fact no spade fell on the turn!! :P
 
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Sat Oct 05, 2013, 01:54 PM
(#11)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceKingBlows View Post
Tried to post this several times and keep getting dc'd grr! :p

There is more that goes into the decision to barrel the turn than simply "are we pricing ourselves out to draw to our flush". For a start, if we bet, we set the price. We have a chance to draw to a pretty strong well disguised hand (I'm thinking of rivering TP as much as I am a flush and would be absolutely 3 barreling any A/K for value) AND we're going to produce not insignificant fold equity vs his range. Let's say opp peels flop /w 22,44, 88 or a similar one pair hand, turn Qs, Villain = ??? Obviously this is an extreme example and Qs is one of the best cards for us to barrel (aside from an A or K as JWK mentions)but vs this range a second barrel on most spades is still going to produce decent fold equity. I'm not saying let's monkey off and make some huge 3 barrel bluff when we miss, but staying aggressive often pays dividends in these spots in my experience.

I think it's understandable to a certain extent to promote a passive approach to this situation (and given the early stage of the tournament, I'm certainly not implying i think it's "wrong" to play it that way) but I personally believe that c/f'ing a turn that likely gives us a pretty chunky slice of equity unless we are laid the correct price is a mistake and too weak in general. Imo, we need to build our stack any way we can (within reason! :P) we can't hang around waiting to crush a flop or cooler someone as a reliable method of chipping up.

Just my 2 cents and all totally academic given the fact no spade fell on the turn!! :P

Nice post, some good food for thought.

It's good to see some well reasoned, albeit differing opinions being discussed.

Being selectively aggressive is something I'm working on, especially in the early stages of these tourneys. I don't mind nitting up early on but I think we can definitely lose some value this way. Obviously going maniacal is going to have even worse consequences. I have yet to find the right balance.
 

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