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5 NL 6max zoom – KK against A on the flop, on blinds

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5 NL 6max zoom – KK against A on the flop, on blinds - Sun Oct 06, 2013, 03:19 PM
(#1)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
I think I might have lost this hand too easily, without a fight. A check-raise could have taken this down on the flop, maybe just call the turn and re-evaluate.

Villain: 15 hands, 29/21, WWF:1/3

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

Button ($4.49)
Hero (SB) ($5.13)
BB ($3)
UTG ($3.89)
MP ($5.55)
CO ($11.53)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K
3 folds, Button raises to $0.15, Hero raises to $0.44, 1 fold, Button calls $0.29

Flop: ($0.93) 3, 3, A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.53) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.50, Hero folds

Total pot: $1.53 | Rake: $0.06

Results below:
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Sun Oct 06, 2013, 04:35 PM
(#2)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
You cant really check raise that flop it would look like a bluff what are you repping AA, when you check there its obvious what you got, i know how everyone says check KK there i do to but its so obvious what you have any decent player can just barrel you off your hand.

Im not sure if you should still thin value bet your KK when theres a flush draw they could draw to but then again if they called two barrels they might be drawing to the nut flush and your beat on the flop anyway, i would of called his bets though they look bluffy to me if he knows what range you have there when you check call he would bet bigger its not like you was check calling with a flush draw he might decide to go for thin value with QQ JJ or he might just call with weak Aces i dont know but i wont be letting people steal a pot for those tiny bets when i held KK.
 
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Sun Oct 06, 2013, 05:57 PM
(#3)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Yeah, that felt silly after.

But he called my 3b, mostly Ax hands would do that.
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 01:56 AM
(#4)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
If you are going to call his bet OTF, I think cbet is better, if don't cbet just fold to his bet because you are OOP and he will bet OTT too. and yes he's got a lot of strong A in his hand range.
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 05:23 AM
(#5)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
mike, I’m starting to think your opinions make a lot of sense.

His bet size is so small, that one would think he doesn’t necessary have a strong A. He called 3bet, so small aces are also unlikely. Thus, he could do this kind of betting with any pair over 33 maybe even more than a A-small. My 3bet size was a bit small, so he might have called a bit wider though.

Shichi, I was thinking about that, but does being OOP really warrant such drastic measures to turn KK to a bluff?
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 05:37 AM
(#6)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
mike, I’m starting to think your opinions make a lot of sense.

His bet size is so small, that one would think he doesn’t necessary have a strong A. He called 3bet, so small aces are also unlikely. Thus, he could do this kind of betting with any pair over 33 maybe even more than a A-small. My 3bet size was a bit small, so he might have called a bit wider though.

Shichi, I was thinking about that, but does being OOP really warrant such drastic measures to turn KK to a bluff?
It just reduces bluffs from his site , I hate playing OOP my self it's difficult situation for me always.
I just sad that ""if you are going to call his bet" . I think check fold isn't mistake.

Last edited by Shichi-77; Mon Oct 07, 2013 at 05:40 AM..
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 06:34 AM
(#7)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Hi Brave,

We need to consider what hands Villain calls our 3bet... IP he could call a little wider, but I still think he is only likely to call with hands like TT+ ATs+ AQo+ & would most likely raise with AA, QQ, AK poss JJ. [btw 3bet size is fine... maybe $0.45].

I personally would have cbet OTF after 3bet. By checking you lose the initiative & therefore have no idea where you stand in the hand [... as Mike said it effectively turns your cards face up]. You could easily represent the A after 3betting p/f and if Villain raises it is an easy b/f. If Villain calls you have options OTT to continue as changes nothing & re-evaluate OTR.

As played... Villain bet sizing [1/3 pot] OTF & OTT seems weak & maybe suggests a hand like AJ, AT maybe JJ, TT or drawing hand. Unless he thinks your slow playing AA, I would expect Villain to bet for value with TPGK [after you check] making it $0.65 OTF & $1.10 OTT, however the fact that he bets into you on two streets & you have limited outs [... & already losing to Ax] leaves you little option but to x/f OTT.

GL @ the tables.

BR

Tony [ aka prodigy237]

Last edited by Prodigy237; Mon Oct 07, 2013 at 08:06 AM.. Reason: Added
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 08:04 AM
(#8)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi guys,

Interesting discussion going on here

First let me say that I really hate the 3bet size
Here's why:
1. We are OOP and I want to raise larger because we are at a positional disadvantage
2. With a hand like KK we benefit from having a lower SPR when we see a flop (There's a video in the archive where Dave goes through SPR theory - I suggest you go through it if your not sure about SPR)
3. We have a premium hand and I want to build a pot.

I would raise it to 10bbs against a standard 3bb open or 3x their bet + 1bb whenever we are OOP.

On this flop we are in a way ahead-way behind situation. Now lets see what options we have OTF.
. x/r: out of the question for me because what do we acheive? We will be folding hands that we already beat and they would continue with hands that beat us.
. x/f: too weak and too early to exit the hand
. x/c: we keep their range wide and bluffs in
. bet: we fold complete misses and get called with a narrower range

Let's try to think with what range villain might call a 3bet here IP. With our bet sizing we are giving them approximately 2:1 on a call so I figure they might call us slightly lighter here.
I expect QQ+, AK to 4bet here most of the time. So I think the hands that call will look something like: JJ-77, AQo-ATo, AQs-A7s, KQ, KJs, QJs, KTs, QTs, JTs-87s
That range consists of 40% TPs, 27% PP belwo TP, 8% FDs, 25% No made hands.

Here's what happens when we bet:
. TP hands are calling: 45 combos
. FDs are calling: 9 combos
. PP below TP might call like 50% of the time: so 15 combos
. No made hands are folding:27 combos

So against their call range our hand has 36% equity.
Okay so you think the number of Ax hands we gave them is too wide. Fine, lets remove A9s-A7s. We still have 40% equity. Okay fine, take out ATo and AJo. We now are even money at best!

So I think I prefer checking here and give them the chance to put a bluff bet OTF with our 60% equity or have them call us with hands that we beat if they checked back and we bet the turn.


When we check call and they bet again I think their hands would be TP hands or hands that bluffed the flop with FD or picked up a heart draw. I think some hands with SD value might check the turn to control the size of the pot. So weak Ax hands, JJ/TT might check back.
Given that we have 37% equity against AQ/AJ, KQs, KJs, QJs, KTs, QTs, JTs-87s (clubs and hearts) - With their bet sizing we need to be good 20% so I'd probably call the turn too and fold to a river bet.

Last edited by geoVARTA; Mon Oct 07, 2013 at 08:07 AM..
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 10:06 AM
(#9)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post

So I think I prefer checking here and give them the chance to put a bluff bet OTF with our 60% equity or have them call us with hands that we beat if they checked back and we bet the turn.

When we check call and they bet again I think their hands would be TP hands or hands that bluffed the flop with FD or picked up a heart draw. I think some hands with SD value might check the turn to control the size of the pot. So weak Ax hands, JJ/TT might check back.
Given that we have 37% equity against AQ/AJ, KQs, KJs, QJs, KTs, QTs, JTs-87s (clubs and hearts) - With their bet sizing we need to be good 20% so I'd probably call the turn too and fold to a river bet.
Hey George,

By 'x' OTF... Do we not give Villains on drawing hands an opportunity to 'x' behind & take a free card? As you say, we're then faced with both hearts & club draws to contend with, so what would you do if we get raised OTT... & why would this be preferable to b/f OTF?

It is also possible that Villain purposely bets small to induce action / keep us in the pot?

BR

Tony [aka Prodigy237]

Last edited by Prodigy237; Mon Oct 07, 2013 at 10:23 AM..
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 12:02 PM
(#10)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
My in-line comments below

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigy237 View Post
Hey George,

By 'x' OTF... Do we not give Villains on drawing hands an opportunity to 'x' behind & take a free card? As you say, we're then faced with both hearts & club draws to contend with, so what would you do if we get raised OTT... & why would this be preferable to b/f OTF?

x/c is preferable over b/f because this is what their range consists of:
40% TPs, 27% PP belwo TP, 8% FDs, 25% No made hands.



It is also possible that Villain purposely bets small to induce action / keep us in the pot?
Could be, but could also be some sort of a "blocking bet" trying to go to SD cheap and avoid a big bet if they checked instead

BR

Tony [aka Prodigy237]
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 12:09 PM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Just a thought... if I were the villain I'd make this smaller sizing with my big aces to string the hero along, as his range seems pretty face up as JJ-KK. If he's a light 3-bettor vs. button opens, it's still the same, his light 3b range that check/calls the flop is heavy in Ax so if I'm sitting here with AK/AQ for example I'm going for 3 streets with sizings that JJ-KK and Ax will have a hard time passing on.


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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 01:33 PM
(#12)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Just a thought... if I were the villain I'd make this smaller sizing with my big aces to string the hero along, as his range seems pretty face up as JJ-KK. If he's a light 3-bettor vs. button opens, it's still the same, his light 3b range that check/calls the flop is heavy in Ax so if I'm sitting here with AK/AQ for example I'm going for 3 streets with sizings that JJ-KK and Ax will have a hard time passing on.
Hmm i can see what your saying there Dave but lets say i was villain with AK i would expect all hero light 3bet to jst bet this flop so seen as he never i know hes gonna have a hand with showdown value and i would say he has KK QQ most of the time im not sure of the best line here if i had JJ TT but i think i would just bet flop and hope he folds because theres gonna be some turns he could end up making a better hand against me.

So i would assume that hero is not folding to even a pot sized bet her if hes got KK QQ and if the turn was a blank i would start firing half pot bets to induce another call and get him stacked by the river.

What do you think of that line? I would like to think i wouldnt fall for that line but if i had KK there i would find it really hard to fold there unless i thought villain had a solid read on what i check back there in a 3bet pot.
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 02:34 PM
(#13)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Potting it makes it much harder to get called by KK/QQ, they are probably check/calling a reasonable bet with a pretty high frequency, but once we get north of 2/3rds pot I think we are pushing that envelope. We may bet 1 call but I doubt are getting a 2nd if you barrel, even though you come down to half the pot in size.

It also removes the chance that the hero loses his mind and check-raises. Here in this hand brave is considering check-raising the 1/3rd pot bet (although he didn't do it), but if villain potted it I doubt this is even considered (much less done).


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Last edited by TheLangolier; Mon Oct 07, 2013 at 02:36 PM..
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 03:59 PM
(#14)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
That sounds reasonable Dave, and I’m going to try that next time - if I ever get a chance.

Really understandable reasoning George, big TY for that!
 

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