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C betting quiz - Dry or Wet

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C betting quiz - Dry or Wet - Mon Oct 07, 2013, 01:58 AM
(#1)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,424
Hi

Im not sure if you can have in between and I cant think of any in particular I want answering so im using **deleted link to competing poker site which is against the forum rules JWK24**


1 i think wet so dont c bet

2 fairly wet but im unsure

3 fairly dry but im unsure

4 wet=dont c bet

5 used to think wet but this is dry

6 fairly dry but i iant sure again

7 umm fairly dry i think ?

8 pretty wet

9 dry perfect for c betting

10 very dry

I would give myself 6/10 but thsi is the 3rd tiem iattemtped it (with different random flops each time) first time got lot dry flops and scored 7/10 but the next tiem wa sevry confused so realised some I dont know probably 20 to 30%

Hope someone can explain to me the ones I got wrong and why

cheers

rolo

Last edited by JWK24; Mon Oct 07, 2013 at 12:01 PM..
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 12:05 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,814
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Hi rolo!

For me, I look at much more than just the 3 cards on the flop. I also take into account how many players are in the hand and also whether there was a raise or not preflop. Without this information (along with the opp's stack sizes), IT DEPENDS and I would not be able to reply.

John (JWK24)


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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 01:16 PM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
I agree with John. I understand you want to improve your c-betting efficiency, but board texture is just one factor to consider when deciding whether to bet or not.
It's all well and good categorizing flops as wet or dry, but how they interact with ranges (and your own hand), and also the type, number and positions of villains you're up against is something else.

For example, the two-tone KJ2 flop might only have one open-ended straight draw available (QT), but it also has a flush draw, and depending on your opponent's position and tendencies, you could well be a big underdog to his range even if you held AQ (the "nut air" gutshot and overcard). In a 3-bet pot, that flop would be pretty scary for you even if you held AA. Conversely, you would love to see the 443 two-tone or 973 rainbow if you had AA in a 3-bet pot, because you expect to get action from worse overpairs, but you'd hate those boards (and might not bet) if you had AK, because better hands than yours are never folding.

In short, the "wetness" of the flop is not the only factor in the decision process. Choosing whether to c-bet or not depends on so much else.


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Mon Oct 07, 2013 at 01:23 PM..
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 01:30 PM
(#4)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Just like starting hands, there's no right or wrong answer without any information on the players and like JWK often says,
IT DEPENDS

 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 07:13 PM
(#5)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Hi Rolo,

How's it going.

I am going to provide an example and I hope it helps, other opinions are welcome. This example is going to be a very basic and easy example, but it might help.

Example

Hero (100bb stack) UTG+1 with AQo

Hero raises (3bb) as standard.

A villain (100bb stack) calls OTB.

Hero is heads-up with villain.

Hero has no reads on opponent, but sees that hero has a good sample size on villains VPIP/PFR and c-bet fold stat.

Looking, hero sees VPIP/PFR 9/6, and a c-bet fold stat of 73%

Hero thinks villain is a nit, and that with a c-bet fold stat of 73%, it would be profitable to c-bet highly
on nearly, if not all board types with a 100% pot bet - since breakeven Fold Equity (FE) = bet / (bet + pot) say for instance the pot is 15c, hero bets 15c on the flop therefore breakeven FE = 15/ (15 + 15) = 50%. We can see that hero can c-bet 100% pot for it to be breakeven equity.

Went on a bit of a tangent there, but you probably wouldn't have to make a 100% cbet to get villain to fold.

flop comes up K72 rainbow. As you can imagine you should c-bet this repping AK.

If villain does call, then since he has a high fold to a c-bet stat, you know that he more than likely has hit the flop hard.


Details that led to the cbet

- your heads-up
- the player tendencies given that he is a nit and high fold c-bet
- the flop hits our perceived range since our position is EP the flop came up K72 rainbow, doesn't hit villain's perceived range well.


I hope this helps.

I understand this is probably a no brainer example, but I think it's good to go through the motions of a thinking process, considering all variables (I may have missed some)


Cheers,

Pullin1988

Last edited by pullin1988; Mon Oct 07, 2013 at 07:19 PM..
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 07:55 PM
(#6)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,424
hmm wow I was just trying to build up from nothing and i realise a lot more goes into it yet im surprised at the answers

I guess i shouldnt have included the word c betting (trying to run before I can walk so my mistake)....but all I wanted was are they dry or wet

geuss thats not possible ?

Ive since read other websites and people do say wet or dry without knowing any other information guess they are making a mistake?

pullin you make some good points such as "flop comes up K72 rainbow" and "doesn't hit villain's perceived range well"

I guess it once again comes down to ranging(ok ok i know also player type and position and stacks etc) but that part ranging i struggle with also especially their perceived range

At 2NL or low buyin SNG hole card strength i find is very important as noone rarely folds...so the flop matters less(on average)

So when a trainer such as Gareth says "this is a dry flop" is he only thinking of flop or is he also thinking lot of other factors?

Now im more confused than ever
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 08:27 PM
(#7)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,424
also i meant a heads up pot as they simplest..not sure if i meant raised or unraised though probably raised as I rarely limp these days

I rarely bluff (im also including c betting here) so I know at my stakes bluffing is bad as I do make a profit somehow....yet started off on a huge heater was insane

although I have started stealing so that is a type of bluffing

No wonder I cant grasp c betting as i didnt even realise all the ingredients you need

ps just by saying it depends isnt much useful to a newbie so im glad you pointed out what it depended on John
Iwil go back thru Artys c betitng blog as I had a month break and when i do that i get very rusty (even Felix gets rusty which surprised me but his was live to online yet still rust)

Thank You
 
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Tue Oct 08, 2013, 10:00 AM
(#8)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Nice post, pullin. Your decision tree is exactly the sort of thing that good players work through. It might look like a lot to think about when it's written down, but it soon becomes second nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
all I wanted was are they dry or wet
That's fairly simple to work out. When you look at a flop, you should ask yourself how many hands it connects with.

You could work through this list:
Is it possible to have flopped a straight?
Do any hands have an open-ended or double bellybuster straight draw? (If so, how many hands have an OESD?)
Does it have a flush draw?
Does it have any gutshot draws?
How many overpairs can there be?

If there are a lot of draws on the board, then it's a wet board (an "action flop"), so a villain is more likely to have connected with it. If there are few or no draws, it's dry.

You correctly defined flop #4 as wet. is super-wet, because it's possible to have flopped a straight, and there's also a flush draw. KJ flopped the nuts, but any jack has an OESD, and you'd also have to worry about various two pair hands and sets.

The flop by contrast is much drier. There is no flush draw, and the board only offers gutshot straight draws, to hands like 76 and 65. On a board like that, you're usually only getting called by made hands (Ax and sets).


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Tue Oct 08, 2013 at 10:03 AM..
 
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Tue Oct 08, 2013, 10:37 PM
(#9)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,424
Thanks Arty

wow@

Is it possible to have flopped a straight?
Do any hands have an open-ended or double bellybuster straight draw? (If so, how many hands have an OESD?)
Does it have a flush draw?
Does it have any gutshot draws?
How many overpairs can there be?

That is kind of what i used to do but then in some trainings they c bet when im thinking they wouldnt or vice versa so I thought i must have had first part incorrect...just so im clear nto just in trainings butalso on tv.....i try to predict if someone will c bet and im nto very successful at it.....I nee dto get more aggressive.....last tiem i steppe dup th eaggrssion in my game i saw better results
knew i was due some run good came back from 2 big blinds to win a 45man yesterday

I need to learn ranging i know i do but once started be tough topic i expect and so i am working on a few other slightly easier things next..wel i hope they easier as i dont know until i try
 

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