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5 NL 6max zoom, KK OOP - A high flop, 2 villains, turned bluff OTF

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5 NL 6max zoom, KK OOP - A high flop, 2 villains, turned bluff OTF - Mon Oct 07, 2013, 03:12 PM
(#1)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Did I miss value by turning this to a bluff?

Villain CO: 75 hands, 22/18/3, WWSF:58, AF:3, WTSD: 2/4
Villain BUTTON: 31 hands, 26/23/0, WWSF:20, AF:6, WTSD: 0/2

Flop: I felt extremely vulnerable against two players. So I went for aggression. Plan= bet/(shut down/fold). Had I checked, I would not have called a bet - I hope. I could maybe have called a small river bet, if flush does not complete.

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

Button ($10.55)
SB ($6.51)
BB ($27.17)
UTG ($5)
Hero (MP) ($5.17)
CO ($5.43)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, K
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.15, CO calls $0.15, Button calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.52) A, 6, 9 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.32



BTW, this is interesting because here: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...flop-on-blinds it was deemed bad to raise, but does two villains make a difference? I know at least that the fear factor raises to 4x. Also, giving a free card against two is double the annoyance. Its also true that them having A is more likely than one opponent. The range is different though, they are not probably that A heavy (compared to 3bet pot).

Last edited by braveslice; Mon Oct 07, 2013 at 03:42 PM..
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 03:58 PM
(#2)
Low Rated's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 114
Hey Brave.

A cbet in this spot is absolutely fine. We are OOP vs 2 villains who from their stats seem like regs that are likely to push us off our hand if we play passively. Also just because the Overcard came, it doesn't mean we don't still have the best hand since players are more likely to enter MW pots with speculative hands rather than TP type hands.

There could be many drawing and PP combos in the villains ranges. We can also bet again on any A/K/club that comes OTT which can get us some value from worse hands or fold out weak Ax hands. Of course we could play our hand as a bluff catcher but OOP and MW that will be difficult to do.

Well played IMO but let's hear what the HA's think.
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 10:08 PM
(#3)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
I wouldn't cbet this normally but having the BDFD gives me more reason not to since you can check call and see if turn is a c which you couldn't if you get raised on flop.
 
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Mon Oct 07, 2013, 11:45 PM
(#4)
Keldraco's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 102
isnt it hard to bet here since it neither for value or bluff? even worst you are OOP.
 
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Tue Oct 08, 2013, 06:46 AM
(#5)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Rated View Post
Of course we could play our hand as a bluff catcher but OOP and MW that will be difficult to do.
That was my prime reason to CB. Maybe not the most EV+, but then again, it might be the most profitable for me, with the mistakes and easy folds.

I think the main point of geoVARTA’s post in previous similar topic stands as it is: “x/r: out of the question for me because what do we acheive? We will be folding hands that we already beat and they would continue with hands that beat us.”

Just felt, well, the same way you described it.

After reading posts from Carlos and Keldraco, I kind of see what the answer is going to be, “check/call, this is classical way a head way behind situation” , "Call flop and turn bet, fold on river, it is unlikely draw will bluff OTR, because they put us to Ax,KK,QQ"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaRLoS_DZ87 View Post
I wouldn't cbet this normally but having the BDFD gives me more reason not to since you can check call and see if turn is a c which you couldn't if you get raised on flop.
This is really nice point of view, if BDFD gives us another reason to call. So we could count that as a one out, making us drawing 3 outs, but we might still have the best hand. I do fail to count any value for BDFD, but I know that all the good players do give them lots of value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keldraco View Post
isnt it hard to bet here since it neither for value or bluff? even worst you are OOP.
If we can’t make better hands to fold, I think you are right. Oh well, maybe it was a value bet against flush draws.

Last edited by braveslice; Tue Oct 08, 2013 at 08:45 AM..
 
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Tue Oct 08, 2013, 07:00 AM
(#6)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
I think in a MW pot, players are more inclined to play honest. It's like the prisoners dilemma or Nash Equilibrium (if you haven't heard of it, google it its basically game theory)

Anyways, here's how I see it:
. When we Bet the CO is unlikely to float or try something fancy without a hand or some draw when there is a player left to act behind them, and the BTN (without a hand) cannot call behind the CO after we bet and the CO calls. But even if the CO folds, its also unlikely that the BTN will call us light because we just bet into two opponents so we might be getting more credit to have a hand.
So as you can see when we do bet and get called, it's going be hard for us to continue on later streets because we cannot barrel turn cards and expect folds from TP hands, when we 2barell we expect hands lower than TP to fold and not TP hands and in this case the likely hood of them having TP is higher than having a lower pair when we bet into two opponents and get called.

. With a check we seem to have slightly more options and scenarios. If we check, I won't expect the CO to bet without a made hand when there are two players left to act behind them and they are not the PFR. And I know that the BTN also knows that so if we check, CO bets, and BTN calls. Then our decision becomes easier. Probably fold.
Now if we check and the CO checks but the BTN bets. Now it's more likely that the BTN could be trying to pick up the pot so we kept their range wide by checking and now we can proceed to call. If the CO then calls then we can assign a probability that the CO to has an Ace. And if the turn goes check check and the BTN bets again, we can safely fold and not expect to be bluffed in that scenario.
 
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Tue Oct 08, 2013, 07:20 AM
(#7)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
"If the CO then calls then we can assign a probability that the CO to has an Ace."

Why would CO check if he has a A?
 
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Tue Oct 08, 2013, 07:55 AM
(#8)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
"If the CO then calls then we can assign a probability that the CO to has an Ace."

Why would CO check if he has a A?
Perhaps to pot control with a weak A or pick up a bluff bet on later streets
 
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Tue Oct 08, 2013, 08:19 AM
(#9)
MrFlopes's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 152
And when we call, CO folds and BTN bets the turn that isn't another ace. You consider a call?
 
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Wed Oct 09, 2013, 05:43 AM
(#10)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFlopes View Post
And when we call, CO folds and BTN bets the turn that isn't another ace. You consider a call?
We check, CO checks, BTN calls, we call, and CO folds
I think an Ace OTT is actually an interesting card because with two aces on board it becomes less likely that they have an Ace. And given we have checked the flop, they might use that card to continue bluffing and putting pressure on our medium strength hands. I think the Ace on the turn won't change much because if they do have an ace we would have already been beaten OTF.

So I think I'd x/c one more bet on another Ace or any club, x/r on a K. And perhaps fold to another bet on any other cards and x/f rivers unimproved.
 

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