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5NL Zoom (6max), Should I bet OTT?

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5NL Zoom (6max), Should I bet OTT? - Tue Oct 08, 2013, 04:01 PM
(#1)
hahaharofl's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 19

Hi all~~

BB 211 hands VPIP 13:12 AG 3.3 3B 7.1 3B.ST 14

Flop
I hit the middle set, so I bet to both protect and build the pot. He chk-raised and I called

Turn
Pretty good card for me I guess he checked, I checked ( worried he might have the top set at the time)

River
He check again and I bet half-pot he fold

Questions:
1) Should I have bet a bit bigger on the FLOP? like 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot?
2) Can he be semi-bluffing with the check-raise(AKc)?
3) Should I bet the turn? Now I look at it again I think he would prob bet again here OTT if he has the top set and maybe button set as well ?
4) Should I bet smaller OTR if for value?
 
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Tue Oct 08, 2013, 08:11 PM
(#2)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
You should be 3betting the flop with middle set. If he has a hand like AKss, I think he's quite likely get the money in OTF, but if the turn bricks then he is more likely to c/f.

So...

1) I'd prefer more like 2/3 pot (so $.60-$.70) because it's quite coordinated.
2) Yes. More than likely 2 overs and a nut flush draw are a favourite from his point of view. That's why 3betting the flop and getting the money in is best.
3) Given he checked to you, I can't see any reason not to bet and to extract value.
4) If you bet OTT, you could shove the river quite comfortably.
 
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Wed Oct 09, 2013, 04:39 AM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
I'd actualy fold to the 3-bet pre-flop. It's pretty close, but you don't quite have the 15:1 implied odds that is recommened for set-mining (generally speaking, you need effective stacks of 120bb+ to go set-mining in 3-bet pots), and I'm not convinced this tight 13/12 villain is the type to donate his whole stack if you hit your two-outer.

That said, you called and you do at least have the benefit of position. This should enable you to maximise your winnings when you hit a set. Villain checks the flop, which is quite weird, since he should be betting this flop a high percentage of the time. With your set, betting for value is correct, because you don't want villain receiving a free card if he has some kind of draw, even if it's just two overcards. A bet of about half pot is fairly standard in 3-bet pots. I'd go with about 55c here. When the villain check-raises, the chance he has top set should cross your mind for a second, but then you should remember: You have a set in a 3-bet pot! If you can't commit to getting all in now, then don't play the hand in the first place!
The best play is to re-raise the flop and stack off, because you're only losing to 3 combos of QQ, but you're a big favourite vs KK+/AQ+ and all the draws. If he just calls a re-raise, shove the turn. It's really as simple as that.

Instead, you just called the check-raise. This is kind of OK if you think the villain is capable of firing a second barrel with the nut flush draw, but what do you do if the turn bricks out and he gives up on his bluff? Get the money in on the flop, when you have the second nuts. Don't give the villain a chance to save his pennies. You should definitely bet the turn, because villain's range remains unchanged. That would set up an easy shove on the river.

I think the crucial thing you need to understand here is not the the line of action and bet-sizes, per se. It's the concept of set-mining itself. You don't flop sets very often, so to make up for all the times you miss the flop and have to fold, you have to do everything in your power to win a whole stack on the rare occasions when you hit. The maximum you can win in this particular hand is 102bb (villain's starting stack), but you had to put 10bb in the middle just to see a flop. Since the odds against hitting a set are around 8 to 1, you need to win at least 80bb just to break even in the long run. In this hand, villain offloaded a grand total of 31bb. Only winning 30bb with a set in a 3-bet pot is a disaster! It won't pay for all the times you call 10bb pre and then fold on the flop. You've got to try harder to win a whole stack, and you won't do that by checking and calling. You should commit to stacking off, as - in a 3-bet pot in particular - the villain should be equally committed with an overpair or the NFD.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Arty


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 04:58 AM..
 
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Wed Oct 09, 2013, 07:47 AM
(#4)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
I agree with birday, no reason to bet flop unless you intend to get the money in, so the move should be a 3bet on the flop.
As played definitely bet turn, not only for value but to balance the times that you have a medium-weak kind of hand.
And Arty we are calling 7BBs not 10, since we already put 3BBs in the middle by raising.
 
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Wed Oct 09, 2013, 10:30 AM
(#5)
hahaharofl's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 19
Thx all for the replays they are all very helpful

As all of you mentioned what I should have done is try to get as much money on the pot as possible especially when some people raised the flop !!!! Totally got it now, if I can't commit to play the stack on this flop I shouldn't even be set-mining here
 
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Fri Oct 11, 2013, 06:38 AM
(#6)
nanonoko's Avatar
nanonoko
(nanonoko)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 350
Supernova
Your hand is very strong on the flop (obviously) but actually his check raise after 3betting this flop is very strong too. This is a board that hits your range very hard so him check-raising it is him showing strength so I would actually prefer to reraise and get it in on the flop. If he's got a flush draw he's going to get it in on the flop but if he misses on the turn he might slow down and you don't get to stack him. If he's got like AQ then he might get scared on the turn if some scare cards roll off.

As played though, I would be the turn because you shouldn't give away free equity in position in such a huge pot despite having a strong hand. What if he had AKss and he was not going to put in any more bets after the flop play, then its quite possible that you gave him a free shot at taking you down for no reason.

Hope that helps!

Last edited by nanonoko; Thu Apr 10, 2014 at 08:55 PM..
 

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