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$0.25 NL - Folding pocket Js to the SB

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$0.25 NL - Folding pocket Js to the SB - Fri Oct 11, 2013, 06:24 AM
(#1)
IBStryp's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 49
I'm having a hard time trying to find the hand so I can use the Hand Replayer, so I will post a link to Boom instead.

http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hand...464_F1A823909C

I had pocket Js on the BTN and everyone folded to me, I had a suspicion the SB was setmining and was cautious given the flop and his calling of my bets.

For some reason, him betting after the 2nd 9 on the River appeared, convinced me he had trips or better and I fold my pocket Js.
After reviewing the hand, I am unsure if I should have gone to showdown and would like some feedback.
 
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Fri Oct 11, 2013, 06:48 AM
(#2)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
I would bet turn for sure.
There so many hands that you beat, so no reason to check and let him draw for free.
As played I am calling river.
You played it too tight in my opinion.
 
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Fri Oct 11, 2013, 08:21 AM
(#3)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by GamblingProp View Post
I would bet turn for sure.
There so many hands that you beat, so no reason to check and let him draw for free.
As played I am calling river.
You played it too tight in my opinion.
I'm calling too.
 
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Fri Oct 11, 2013, 11:37 AM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Hi IBStryp!

With JJ (or any other hand that I'm going to open with), I'm going to make a standard raise, which for this blind level is to 3BB+1BB for each limper. With no limpers, I will raise to 450. I do not want to bet less than this or I can be giving the opps the correct odds to try to outdraw me... something that I need to avoid if at all possible.

The flop is three unders, but there are multiple straight draws and a flush draw possible. With only one opp in the hand, a standard bet sizing is 1/2 pot, so I will bet 405. Once again, I do NOT want to bet less than this. If I give the opp the right odds to outdraw me and they do so.. it's my own fault that I lose the hand.

The same thing on the turn. With one opp, I need to make a 1/2 pot bet, both for value and to protect my hand against all of the draws. However... this bet is over 1/3 of my remaining stack, which means that it will pot-commit me. Due to this, I need to SHOVE the turn.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Oct 11, 2013, 01:43 PM
(#5)
IBStryp's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 49
Hi JWK24,

Thanks for the review, and after looking at the hand again, and the flop+turn, I will be shoving the next time.


Cheers!
 
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Fri Oct 11, 2013, 03:12 PM
(#6)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi IBStryp!

With JJ (or any other hand that I'm going to open with), I'm going to make a standard raise, which for this blind level is to 3BB+1BB for each limper. With no limpers, I will raise to 450. I do not want to bet less than this or I can be giving the opps the correct odds to try to outdraw me... something that I need to avoid if at all possible.
Look at the depth of the stacks compared to the blinds again,think you're off here. Whole table is between 26BB down to 11BB stacks. Would NOT be 3x opening myself at this stage.

I think the pre-flop bet sizing is fine.
 
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Sat Oct 12, 2013, 01:27 AM
(#7)
IBStryp's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Look at the depth of the stacks compared to the blinds again,think you're off here. Whole table is between 26BB down to 11BB stacks. Would NOT be 3x opening myself at this stage.

I think the pre-flop bet sizing is fine.
A bit confused now, you're saying the pre flop raise is fine, but you would NOT be opening 3x yourself?
 
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Sat Oct 12, 2013, 04:15 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBStryp View Post
A bit confused now, you're saying the pre flop raise is fine, but you would NOT be opening 3x yourself?

Yes.

Your opening bet is 330 with the BB at 150,so you opened 2.,NOT 3x. JWK's post said he would open 3x+1 for each limper (if any) here---that would mean you bet 450 to open pre-flop,not the 330 that you actually bet. I think your line pre-flop is better at this depth of money and honestly I think JW does as well were he to look at it again,think he may have just got caught in a "rote problem" here as he has seen so many examples of improper bet sizing that he's just used to having to type "3x+1 for each limper".

Typically when our stacks shrink to being 30BB's and under we should be scaling down off of the standard 3x bet pre to something like to 2.. We're still raising,so we're still aggressive...but we're not investing so much that we're loathe to fold to 3-bets if we get caught stealing. Since we DON'T want to give out an obvious tell by raising one amount with premium holdings and another when we're just stealing we want to keep our bet sizes the same. So if you would be raising 2. here with the JJ hand you want to be raising the same amount with a random hand that you're trying to steal with. With the shorter stack raising 3x and folding to 3-bets can add up fast,that one extra BB (or .8BB if you're 2.2 raising) can be important.

Most more adept players and regs get this,and that's another reason to do so...players who 3x raise the whole way through are often inexperienced (fishy) types and are notes as such.

So,again,I like your 2. open here over a 3x.

I think you erred by...

a: betting a little too small on the flop,should be 1/2 the pot here (even a slight over-bet of 2/3's the pot would be preferable to the slight under-bet).

and b: should have shoved the Turn. You're getting called by a lot of worse hands here and not so many that beat you. Plus you have outs if they connected for a lower straight.

Personally,as played,I think the obvious looking hand for the villain here is the most likely...A9. Players at this level massively overate Ax and especially Aces with a mid-card like 7,8&9. And will call over and over OOP from the blinds with them. Then I think they see the straight possibility when the 10 turns and were shutting it down. You don't want to let them peel that river card for free when this happens. With the stack sizes and the amount of money already in the pot our Turn bet should be a shove. We can never bet 1/2 the pot on the turn and then fold at any point after (re-raised on Turn or villain leads out on River) anyway,so use our bet as a weapon and shove the Turn.
 
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Sat Oct 12, 2013, 04:26 PM
(#9)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 101
BronzeStar
Shove turn. Never folding as played.
 
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Sat Oct 12, 2013, 04:29 PM
(#10)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 101
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Look at the depth of the stacks compared to the blinds again,think you're off here. Whole table is between 26BB down to 11BB stacks. Would NOT be 3x opening myself at this stage.

I think the pre-flop bet sizing is fine.
Definitely, 3xing (or whatever we can get away with) premiums is fine if we think the table is half asleep, but min/2.2-5x is standard for me at these stack depths (usually just min)
 
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Sat Oct 12, 2013, 04:55 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,814
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Moxie,

With the way these play, I'm sticking with my standard bets even though the stacks are smaller. I lower it to 2.5 at 100/200. With as bad as many of the opps are, I'm fine with the larger sizing. I don't drop to 2.2BB until 1k/2k and it's VERY rare to get to this blind level.

With a made hand, I want to set up getting the chips into the middle as soon as possible on a favorable board. I play these a bit tighter than most players, so when I get a hand that I do want to play, I want to build the pot, as I will most likely be way ahead of the opp's ranges.

The one thing that I will not do is to min-raise. The only time you will see me min-raise... is a mis-click. All min raises do is to bloat the pot and give odds to the opponents.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Oct 12, 2013, 05:03 PM
(#12)
IBStryp's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Yes.

Your opening bet is 330 with the BB ***snip

Typically when our stacks shrink to being 30BB's and under we should be scaling down off of the standard 3x bet pre to something like to 2.. We're still raising,so we're still aggressive...but we're not investing so much that we're loathe to fold to 3-bets if we get caught stealing. Since we DON'T want to give out an obvious tell by raising one amount with premium holdings and another when we're just stealing we want to keep our bet sizes the same. So if you would be raising 2. here with the JJ hand you want to be raising the same amount with a random hand that you're trying to steal with. With the shorter stack raising 3x and folding to 3-bets can add up fast,that one extra BB (or .8BB if you're 2.2 raising) can be important.


Personally,as played,I think the obvious looking hand for the villain here is the most likely...A9. Players at this level massively overate Ax and especially Aces with a mid-card like 7,8&9. And will call over and over OOP from the blinds with them. Then I think they see the straight possibility when the 10 turns and were shutting it down. You don't want to let them peel that river card for free when this happens. With the stack sizes and the amount of money already in the pot our Turn bet should be a shove. We can never bet 1/2 the pot on the turn and then fold at any point after (re-raised on Turn or villain leads out on River) anyway,so use our bet as a weapon and shove the Turn.
The bet sizing used to be exactly what JWK24 suggested, but it's fashionable to minraise, limp and check to the river in these, and it was suggested by another PSO'er to swap the ratio with the SB instead of 2.3BB for instance to have a raise above the minraise but not as high. But I prefer the sizing JWK24 suggests, it forces me to play strong hands and getting pot committed isn't always a nightmare.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Last edited by IBStryp; Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 05:08 PM..
 
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Sat Oct 12, 2013, 05:10 PM
(#13)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBStryp View Post
The bet sizing used to be exactly what JWK24 suggested, but it's fashionable to minraise, limp and check to the river in these, and it was suggested by another PSO'er to swap the ratio with the SB instead of 2.3BB for instance to have a raise above the minraise but not as high. But I prefer the sizing JWK24 suggests, it forces me to play strong hands and getting pot committed isn't always a nightmare.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Don't min-raise. It is VERY exploitable by knowledgeable opponents. 2.2 is better than min, 2.5 is better than 2.2 at this blind level.

I'll take the min-raisers at my table.. just like limpers.... pound on them and punish them for being weak.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Oct 12, 2013, 05:19 PM
(#14)
IBStryp's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Don't min-raise. It is VERY exploitable by knowledgeable opponents. 2.2 is better than min, 2.5 is better than 2.2 at this blind level.

I'll take the min-raisers at my table.. just like limpers.... pound on them and punish them for being weak.

John (JWK24)
Right, NO minraises.
 
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Sat Oct 12, 2013, 05:57 PM
(#15)
Halfmead's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 11
BronzeStar
Probably right..but so evil JWK
 

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