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Right or wrong ?

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Right or wrong ? - Sun Oct 13, 2013, 12:55 AM
(#1)
Halfmead's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 11
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Now, i was on a final table in a 1850$ tourney and at 4th place (4th paying 118$, 3rd 125'ish).

We were 2 shortstacks against 2 very big stacks (176k, me 250k, 1mill'ish and 1'2 mill'ish) so 10 BB for me at the time.

I am in BB with 4-4, 2 others fold and SB (1.2mill) calls. I think about it a little and decide to make a raise to 50k, thinking a small raise may show more strenght than shortstack shove, but his stack is too big and he all-ins ofc, a little more thinking and i call. He shows K-2os.
Now he hit his K and i bust. Should i have just flat called from get go and see where flop got me and maybe survive to 3rd place or higher ??
 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 07:55 AM
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ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,355
If the SB just completed, you have the option of checking and seeing a flop for free in position. But 44 doesn't flop well (unless you hit a set) and you only have 10bb. I would shove over the limp, and expect the villain to fold sometimes, and I'd still have equity (I'd usually be flipping) if he calls. Raising small is perhaps the worst option, because then you're pot-committed and have to call a shove, or (in a really werid scenario when villain calls the raise) you have to shove the flop when you're likely to have 3rd or 4th pair.
When you have 10bb, you have no room for creativity. It's shove or fold.


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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 08:30 AM
(#3)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
Yea I think you gotta shove or check and if you miss flop fold. Id rather just go all in here tho.
 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 09:23 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Hi Halfmead!

With 10BB.. I've got one choice... shove or fold. When the SB limps, I'm shoving much wider than this... in the chips go.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 03:23 PM
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Halfmead's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 11
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Yeah, the reason i think i failed is that there was another short(er) stack and i should maybe have waited and hoped for a lucky hand and maybe advance to third spot (or higher) just got caught up on a pocket pair
But yes, in hindsight a raise against an opponent that has me covered 5:1 is useless... thx guys
 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 05:19 PM
(#6)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfmead View Post
Now, i was on a final table in a 1850$ tourney and at 4th place (4th paying 118$, 3rd 125'ish).

We were 2 shortstacks against 2 very big stacks (176k, me 250k, 1mill'ish and 1'2 mill'ish) so 10 BB for me at the time.
Hi Halfmead.

You sure you read and/or typed the first bit of info here correctly? The part about there only being $7 separation between 3rd and 4th place? It's typically quite a bit wider than that in an MTT.

Reason I ask will be shown below....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfmead View Post
Yeah, the reason i think i failed is that there was another short(er) stack and i should maybe have waited and hoped for a lucky hand and maybe advance to third spot (or higher) just got caught up on a pocket pair
But yes, in hindsight a raise against an opponent that has me covered 5:1 is useless... thx guys

I'm insta-shoving here and quite frankly praying that the villain calls with ANY non-paired hand (if they want to call with 22 or 33 that's OK too...).

Reason being is that I'm loving taking a flip here. Look at the stacks...if we shove here and get called and fade the hand then we've more than doubled our stack with the dead money from the BB and the antes added in. That puts us up to around 550k and knocks whatever stack we just doubled through back...if it's the player on the 1 million stack we're pretty close to now being on equal footing with them,which now makes the table dynamic 1 big stack,2 medium stacks and 1 short stack. Our chance for the top 3 and winning have both gone up astronomically. AND we now have tons of fold equity against the 2 larger stacks,something we didn't have much of before.

If we lose,we bust. Bur better going out making the aggressive play. And if we shove and they fold that is also a great result for us. The amount of dead money we pick up here gets us over 300K which gives us real separation from the short stack and increases our equity against the 2 larger stacks to a more viable level.

This becomes an even better play if the gap between 3rd place and 4th place money was only $7,as you stated in your first post. If you know you're scooping $100+ for either 3rd or 4th and the totals are close, fretting over the ladder climb for that small an amount is defo -EV.

Just like sub commanders are told when it's time to target the fleet..."Go for the heavies".

Congrats on the bink.

Good luck and better decisions.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Sun Oct 13, 2013 at 05:25 PM..
 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 07:58 PM
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IBStryp's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 49
I came in last at another FT last night going all in with 12-15 BBs on pocket 3's UTG.
Largest stack on the table, the BTN called with AKo, who wouldn't.

Going forward I would not go up on low pairs at the FT, they're not the cards that got me here (typically) and they're weak unless they're monsters post flop.
But there's no time on the FT to see the flop, only shove at that M range.

BTN of course flopped a K pair and won. Gong forward, I would fold a < 9 pair unless I was in better position and had the table fold to me with players holding fewer chips after. I manage to keep a low VP:PFR and can bully at the BTN thanks to the image that portrays.
 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 09:07 PM
(#8)
Halfmead's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 11
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@Moxie: yeah, the gap between 4th and 3rd really were only 7$..it then rose steeply up to 2nd, i think it was in the 390-400 range for 2nd.

And valid points you (and all else) make for the outright..but, villain also got lucky with his at best 3 outs. it's saved in the greymatter now if i make it high into another FT
 
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Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:29 AM
(#9)
seancoppo's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 23
I'd be shoving here no doubts
 
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Wed Oct 16, 2013, 08:58 AM
(#10)
taxi128's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 245
[QUOTE=Halfmead;453859]Now, i was on a final table in a 1850$ tourney and at 4th place (4th paying 118$, 3rd 125'ish).

Sorry but I have to ask this. It's got me baffled. What is a 1850$ tourney ?


LOL-- ok I've been informed of my error

thanks Moxie


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Last edited by taxi128; Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 09:16 AM..
 
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Wed Oct 16, 2013, 09:17 AM
(#11)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,355
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBStryp View Post
I came in last at another FT last night going all in with 12-15 BBs on pocket 3's UTG.
Largest stack on the table, the BTN called with AKo, who wouldn't.
Your situation was quite different to the one in the top post. Your shove was into 8 players, while the OP's was blind vs blind. Any one of your opponents could have a stronger hand than 3s. Your shoving ranges should alter according to position, as well as stack size and reads.

On a typical microstakes table, in early position with 12-15bb, pocket threes should be folded, because your shove doesn't have as much fold equity (with so many players to get through), and is pretty much never getting called by worse (apart from by AK, which is flipping).

To make it clear how position alters your push range, with 12bb UTG, I'm usually only jamming 7% of hands (99+ ATs+ KQs AJ+), but if the action is folded to me in the small blind, I'm shoving a whopping 47% of hands! (22+ A2s+ K2s+ Q4s+ J6s+ T7s+ 97s+ 87s 76s 65s A2+ K2+ Q8+ J8+ T9). Pocket 3s is well outside the 7% range for UTG, but is towards the top of my 47% range for the SB. So before going all in, remember to think about the likelihood of being called. It's a call is likely, then only shove the strongest hands. If you're less likely to get action, shove with a wider range.

Hope this helps!


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Wed Oct 16, 2013, 09:48 AM
(#12)
missy mama3's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 11
Shove no room to limp or min raise
 

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