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KJs 10NL against unknown 3bet IP

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KJs 10NL against unknown 3bet IP - Sun Oct 13, 2013, 06:53 AM
(#1)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
This hand played out against a total unknown, only 4 hands on him, and nothing at all of relevance could be drawn from them (Crikey, played a hand without relying on HUD stats, I felt totally naked out there)

Anyway, hand folds round to me on the button, and KJs is more than good enough to open. I get 3bet from the small blind. Given that my hand is playable post flop I make the call.

Flop brings two clubs and gives me a flush draw, second nut flush draw, so I call his big cbet hoping to improve on turn. If not I probably fold to a turn bet depending on size.

Turn brings my flush draw home but also pairs the board.

Villain leads out for almost pot again. If I call I am pot committed so I elect to shove over the top as I feel my hand is too strong to fold. If he has the nut flush then fair play to him and if he filled up then that is very unfortunate for me.

Was there anything I should have done differently on this hand?

Should I ever be folding to the turn bet to anyone but a total nit?

Folding turn if it is a total blank the correct move?

 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 07:25 AM
(#2)
behappy621's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 181
Its your personal preference and how you manage risk.

His 3b pf may be a suited Ace like he had or Pocket pair which wants to take it down pf.
his flop bet sizing to me signals he has a pocket pair which doesnt want to see another card.

Some people would figure that they have two overs and flush draw and raise his flop bet b/c another club could kill your action.

if the turn bricks...probably a fold imo.
 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 07:26 AM
(#3)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
It depends on villain . I think calling flop cbet is mistake because of pot odds and if villain is capable to think anything he has to fold after flush draw is completed and if he folds you are loosing a lot of value on a distance . calling with a draw is about implied odds and you don't have it if opp isn't agro fish. If you want to play it shove the flop with a draw and two over cards to the board . I'm not just sure about over cards and fold equity in a 3bet pot.
 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 09:17 AM
(#4)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
What do we think about villain PSB on the flop? It looks to me at best the only worse hand calling is a flush draw and i would really hate to call a PSB on flop i would rather jam or fold. Is that just your standard thing to do with KJs there to call 3 bets?

I mean with no reads we need to flop huge to wanna get stacks in, are you gonna fold if you hit a J or a K and he wants to go all in and you got top pair?
 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 09:42 AM
(#5)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
I'd jam the flop to maximize fold equity with our FD + 2 overs.

We are never in too badder shape if called and it gives us the most ways to take down the pot.

If we call we risk loosing all our equity when a card like that comes, and then we are lost as to what we should do.

Last edited by birdayy; Sun Oct 13, 2013 at 09:49 AM..
 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 09:57 AM
(#6)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
What do we think about villain PSB on the flop? It looks to me at best the only worse hand calling is a flush draw and i would really hate to call a PSB on flop i would rather jam or fold. Is that just your standard thing to do with KJs there to call 3 bets?

I mean with no reads we need to flop huge to wanna get stacks in, are you gonna fold if you hit a J or a K and he wants to go all in and you got top pair?
Against an unknown the pot-sized bet can mean a few different things. We all know there are innumerable villains out there with their own slants on what is the optimal way of playing a hand is. I can look through my database and see hands where it meant great strength, where it meant the guy had a middling hand, or where it meant he had a total bluff.

I'm relatively new to cash games, only actually taking it on from February, so I have a tiny sample size of KJs hands where I have had the opportunity to play it. So to say it is my 'standard' would be fairly pointless at this stage as there simply arent enough instances. I will say that I have played it this way with some success. I have 4bet it with some success. Obviously when I bet/3bet fold it then I have lost money over that sample. I will say that, to date, I am in profit with KJs.

I'm in position in this hand, so I feel I can play it comfortably, am I going to go broke with one pair? No, probably not, so I will lose my pre-flop investment (It was a smallish 3bet compared to most I see too) and calling his cbet. However, on a K or J high flop and blank turn the majority of weaker players will give up, as they often have weak marginal hands and wont bluff them.

As for getting it on the flop, that's an option, certainly, and its probably a reflection of my relative newness to the game that I am sort of squeamish about just getting it in with a draw. I'd be happier if it was the nut flush draw. I don't consider it to the only way of playing it though.
 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 10:06 AM
(#7)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
I'd jam the flop to maximize fold equity with our FD + 2 overs.

We are never in too badder shape if called and it gives us the most ways to take down the pot.

If we call we risk loosing all our equity when a card like that comes, and then we are lost as to what we should do.
I wasn't lost.

I was getting it in on that turn and did so quite quickly.

Like I said in the post I made in reply to mike, shoving flop is an option and I agree that we can often get a fold, but jamming flop with draws hasn't been part of my repertoire up to now, and I don't believe it to be the only option though.
 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 10:24 AM
(#8)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
I don't mean we are lost. It's just a worse situation OTT because we have lost so much equity. We are putting money in knowing we are behind and have no chance of villain folding, which is an awkward spot for any of us to be in.
 
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Sun Oct 13, 2013, 11:01 AM
(#9)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi bhoylegend,

I think vs an unknown I'd fold to the 3bet though our hand has okay playability post flop but I'm afraid our hand could be dominated by his 3betting range without information.

That flop is a bad flop for villain to cbet. So I think the hands we will see with that bet sizing will be TP hands, overpairs or maybe underpairs to protect from overs at best.

Our hand also blocks a few NFDs. The only value hand they could 3bet with a NFD would be AcQc.
Anyways against hands like {AA-JJ, AcQc, AT, Ac9c, Ac8c-Ac2c, 99, 77-55} we have 46% equity if we go all in OTF but if we call it will be hard for us to continue on blanks because our equity would drop to something like 25% and with the bet sizing they put on the flop I expect a big bet OTT on blanks which we will not be able to continue against.

Let's play the hand differently, lets say they jam the flop with value hands. To make the call we need 38%. Against JJ+ we have 42% equity. Given the odds, its +EV to call. When you look at it that way, I think jamming the flop over their bet should be an easy decision I think
 

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