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|0NL Zoom getting 3 streets of bluff

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|0NL Zoom getting 3 streets of bluff - Sun Oct 13, 2013, 06:27 PM
(#1)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
This hand is from 10nl 6-Max Zoom.

The blinds are both unknowns, but just calling behind oop doesnt look very strong. I miss the flop, but after both players show weakness on this board, I decide to c-bet. The bb used a long time before calling and was only playing the one table. I put him on a drawing hand presumably to a flush.

The second 8 on the turn seemed like a good card for me if my range on the villain was correct. So, I barreled the turn and his call had me quite confident that most of his range was drawing hands.

The river didnt help his flush draw. I thought 96 and 64 unlikely. So, I barreled again expecting him to fold missed draws as well as some of the few hands in his range that could be beating me such as second best pair.

I don't take this aggressive a line that often at 10NL with hands that have bricked, but I do it more often at 25NL or 50NL where I believe a villain can find a fold more often.

Any thoughts on this line?



Thanks

Roland GTX
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 03:26 AM
(#2)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Im sure that line does fold that range you think he has but lets look from his angle, your repping an over pair or a set because i doubt your hitting any one pair hands on that board and seen as its a multiway pot i woundnt be suprised if he has some suited connectors and 1 gappers in the BB.

That being said i think your turn bet looks weak for the range your repping and if you did have those hands you would bet bigger to get value from draws and pocket 77 66 maybe 55 that don't believe you have an 8, he can still have over pairs as well. River is a 5 and all your folding on that river is a flush draw i would be surprised if he folds many pairs unless he was just looking at his cards and thought your UTG open must be over pair heavy.

The best way to play that hand though i have no idea i might bet flop sometimes but i wouldn't barrel a paired turn and sometimes i might check and bet turn and river if neither of them bet the turn.

Will be interesting to see what others think because i find myself in this spot alot and im unsure of the best line but i know i would be thinking long and hard about your range if i was the one calling when you bet there.
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 04:20 AM
(#3)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Thanks mike! Why does my turn bet look weak? If I am repping JJ, QQ, KK or AA, I would want to bet enough to give poor odds to a chaser, but not so much that they fold their entire range. 70% of the pot on the turn would be my standard value betsize in this spot.

On the river, I feel pretty confident that most of his range just missed thier draws. This is an arguement for just checking the hand down and hoping I'm ahead. Yet, as you pointed out, there are some pocket pairs in his range and perhaps A3 and A7. My bet bet bet line looks super strong. My bluff needs to work about 40% of the time to be profitable here and against this passive villain which against his range seemed likely from my point of view.

I am currently practicing some ideas gained from The Poker Blueprint. One of them being to recognize situations (board texture, range, action) where I can profitably continue with aggression on the turn and river rather than giving up once my c-bet gets called. I think that if the villain had an overpair that he was confident about then he would have raised the flop or turn.

Like you Im curious to hear what Dave or Gareth has to say. I am a bit outside my comfort zone in this hand...

Roland GTX
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 04:47 AM
(#4)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
My bad just looked at your size again, i thought i saw half pot.I spose your sizing is fine then it looks like your size is roughly the same on flop turn and river just a thought but this would be my sizing half pot on flop and bigger on the turn. Hopefully they fold the turn bet but if they dont you have to make a decision on what rivers you will bet.

As for you expecting them to raise over pairs im not so sure i wouldn't raise any overs on that flop if i get called your gonna either have an over pair yourself or a flush draw so i would want atleast JJ QQ to raise and even then you might just fold alot so i might go for a raise on a blank turn.

Im pretty good at getting people to fold now maybe not at 25nl because they might know what im upto i just wish i knew how to get max value out my hands, its like your saying raise over pairs and i call down and i have know idea which line makes more money which with all the books ive read and the stuff i watched you would think i would know by now but i haven't seen nothing on how to take the most +EV line, well maybe a couple but not enough.
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 05:35 AM
(#5)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Hopefully one of the other HAs can help us here
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 10:31 AM
(#6)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Hi Roland

By the river, i think his range its 99,TT,8x,7x, 55 66,44 maybe 22 and a lot of draws. From those i think he would fold 66,44,22 and if he hit a 5. So I think he folds mostly draws so i rather check back since we are ahead of those.

Last edited by CaRLoS_DZ87; Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 10:37 AM..
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 11:26 AM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi Greg,

Against 2 unknowns I generally don't like c-betting air here on a board that is good for their defending ranges and not good for our range. I would c-bet this more often HU, or with a back door flush draw where we can turn some good barreling cards. As it stands are only good barreling cards are an A or Q (with an ace being a potential problem sometimes as they will call the flop with a pair and ace kicker) and a K or J to bluff. A club shuts us down where as with the backdoor draw it would be a card we could barrel more comfortably with the additional equity.

Their defending ranges are likely stuff like small and medium pairs, suited connectors and 1 gappers, maybe some offsuit connectors if they're loose, Ax, big K's, broadways. C-betting will not fold out any of the hands ahead of us on this board, and will fold out the hands we're beating. That's another advantage of checking back, of a Q comes we will get 2-3 streets of value from KQ/QJ (3 streets = bet and raise on turn), which is a lost opportunity if QJ folds the flop. Also we have some showdown value so we may still win this pot with A high which is not likely to happen if we grow the pot.

I disagree that the 8 on the turn is a good card for you. It won't scare any 1 pair hands as it doesn't hit your range at all, and it makes some of his range trips. It's a bad card for your range and good for his in general. I guess you're putting him on a draw based on the fact that he tanked the flop before calling. But as a timing tell, this would indicate a made hand, not a draw... especially from a recreational player (which is our guess for a 1 tabling 10nl player with no other read). With a draw they usually call quickly as they don't have much to think about, they know they're behind now but they have outs to a big hand. With a made hand, they presumably have something to think about... am I ahead now? Should I call or raise? etc.

As for the river, I would only triple barrel this against a reg-fish as they routinely call 2 streets with pairs in this spot and give up to a solid river bet when they now believe you simply must have JJ+. I would check it down here however because:

-The river is again, not a scare card for his range.
-I don't give credit to an unknown probable recreational player for being able to fold a pair even if your line looks like JJ+
-All draws missed basically, if we felt like he has draws here then we can simply win in showdown with AQ high and save the bet when he's got A7 or 99.

If we feel he's draw heavy then we should be taking this line more with a hand like JT, where we are betting with some hand equity, have more cards that we can barrel effectively (any 9+ either improves us or is a scare card that is good for our perceived range) and can get busted flush draws that have better high cards to fold on the river.


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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 12:13 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post

As for the river, I would only triple barrel this against a reg-fish as they routinely call 2 streets with pairs in this spot and give up to a solid river bet when they now believe you simply must have JJ+.
Hi Dave what would you do on the flop to a bet with 66? I have called down with the intention of calling blank turns and rivers not very often and only vs aggro players, just wondering what your line would be there.
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 12:41 PM
(#9)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Thanks for the detailed reply Dave!

Timing Tell: Ive never really used timing tells until I read about them in The Poker Blueprint. Apparently I got Things turned around in my head and thought tanking meant a drawing hand. I just reviewed that section and the books says exactly what you said. A little knowledge is a Dangerous thing... I wont be making that mistake again.

Cbetting: Im still not sure about checking the flop. We have two villains whose ranges fit fairly well for multiple drawing hands on this board. If I check, they get a free card, a chance to take the initiative and I have little hope of improving. In other Words, Im giving up on the hand. I feel that taking a stab at the pot now is my only real chance at winning the pot and it keeps my options open even though I risk having to bet-fold here or on a later street.

Good stuff! Im Learning

Greg
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:05 PM
(#10)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland GTX View Post

Cbetting: Im still not sure about checking the flop. We have two villains whose ranges fit fairly well for multiple drawing hands on this board. If I check, they get a free card, a chance to take the initiative and I have little hope of improving. In other Words, Im giving up on the hand. I feel that taking a stab at the pot now is my only real chance at winning the pot and it keeps my options open even though I risk having to bet-fold here or on a later street.

Greg
Personally, "checking the flop and giving up the hand" is a normal thing to do and is part of the game. It's better than spewing money in the hope that the players will fold. Some players will slow play a set or any two cards for the matter, so just how much are you willing to lose?

Also "Little hope of improving, Only chance and the Risk having to bet fold" Right there you're seeing all the reason for not continuing, so why do you?

Just my thought here on this hand. I would of checked the flop and hope to get a good turn card and see what their next move would be. I would call a small bet on the turn and re-evaluate and my next move would be to fold to any re-raise or missed river.
BUT, I would look at my profit so far for the session and decide on an amount that I'm willing to gamble (lose...lol) if I had some notes on theses players.

GL Greg
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:40 PM
(#11)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Thanks Sandtrap! I get what you (and Dave) are saying.

FYI, this hand came from one of the best sessions Ive had all year

GL to you too!
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 02:47 PM
(#12)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Hi Dave what would you do on the flop to a bet with 66? I have called down with the intention of calling blank turns and rivers not very often and only vs aggro players, just wondering what your line would be there.
Vs an unknown I would generally call flop in position, and reevaluate on the turn. Vs. players with some reads I might fold or raise.


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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 02:53 PM
(#13)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
Personally, "checking the flop and giving up the hand" is a normal thing to do and is part of the game.
This is a very important point to remember that Sandtrap is making. We don't have to win every single pot we open. That's an unrealistic expectation and will lead us to losing a lot of money if we try.
Sometimes checking and giving up is the best line (although we are by no means giving up just yet when we check the flop here, but if we end up having to, really, that's ok).


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