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UTG open ATo – reverse implied odds

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UTG open ATo – reverse implied odds - Mon Oct 14, 2013, 08:31 AM
(#1)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
The Poker Blueprint states: “Avoid playing ATo from UTG because of reverse implied odds. For example, ATo will be dominated by AK, AQ and AJ too often when the money goes in, and thus it has poor reverse implied odds.”

This is something I have been thinking earlier, now it’s good time to ask:

This same sentence can be said about AJo, thus: “Avoid playing AJo from UTG because of reverse implied odds.” against regular maybe even AQ would get the same treatment, when the money goes in you are mostly behind, even if we only talk about Ax hands.

Are we actually opening these because of we are blocking A from the villains, if so, couldn't we then open even wider range of Ax hands.

Edit: A memory stroke - see its really good to ask =) I once heard that the kicker should be so good that it sometimes wins the pot for you. Maybe this is the idea behind why only raise good aces from the UTG. Pair of Js will win a pot for you many times, and sometimes TT too.

am I right?

Last edited by braveslice; Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 08:39 AM..
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 09:01 AM
(#2)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Thats why you control the size of the pot, i dont open AT btw but if i had 3 tight regs on my left that dont 3bet much and a fish in the blinds i would open up my range and player a much wider range to get IP on the fish and extract some thin value.

I dont do it at zoom because i leave my hud off most of the time but on reg tables you would want to play as many pots as you can vs fish so you would open more hands when your IP.
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 09:20 AM
(#3)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
For unsuited aces I usually only open AJ+. Of course like Mike said, if there are other factors which would make it +EV to open, then we can widen our opening ranges.

I tend to open most suited aces, especially deeper because it has more *****d potential. Generally A9s-A2s are quite similar equity wise (ie the kicker usually doesn't play a major factor)

nb: im assuming 6 max is what you are talking about?
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 09:47 AM
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ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
Are we actually opening these because of we are blocking A from the villains, if so, couldn't we then open even wider range of Ax hands.
We're NOT opening, with them, in early position, because we won't get action from worse.

If you play ragged aces and hit an ace, it doesn't really matter that you have a "blocker". If the flop comes Axx, you won't get 3 streets of value from any one pair hand that you beat, because villain will know you have at least top pair. If he can't beat top pair, jack kicker, he's not paying you off. Ergo, he'll only give you action if he has AQ+ or two pairs, a set etc.

I wrote more about reverse implied odds and the perils of AJ in a thread a couple of days ago.


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 09:49 AM..
 
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Sat Oct 19, 2013, 11:05 AM
(#5)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
TY for your feedback. Yes, I’m talking about 6 max, but I think this can be extended to other game formats too.

It took some time to come up with though pattern here.

I combined what you have said, I did come up with this:
If we would open AT too we would have value range: {AK, 50%AQ), BLUFF range: {50%AQ, AJ,AT} IF the A hits against reg tag, or if we get raised.

That said, with AQ and AJ we have the chance to get top pair top kicker (QJ) in easily playable situations, just like we have a chance with Ax suited hands to get you in win it all situations. And also, you don’t usually lose a lot.

Instead of adding more bluffs to your Ax range, it is advisable to use suited connectors, where you are not so easily dominated when you hit.
 
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Sat Oct 19, 2013, 02:59 PM
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mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
What bluff range are you talking about if you open AT UTG?
 
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Sat Oct 19, 2013, 05:30 PM
(#7)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
What I'm saying even AJ and 50% of AQ is a bluff, when you are mostly called or raised by better aces. Against TAG.

So, including AT too too makes your UTG Ax opening range too wide and you are open to 3bet bluffs. I'm not really sure it really makes a difference (AT versus AJ) in post flop play, they are mostly similar hands, exception being that pair of Js with top kicker wins the pot quite much more regularly.

If we go down to A9, winning with a pairs of 99 is very hard after the flop.

Last edited by braveslice; Sat Oct 19, 2013 at 05:39 PM..
 
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Sat Oct 19, 2013, 05:52 PM
(#8)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
We're NOT opening, with them, in early position, because we won't get action from worse.

If you play ragged aces and hit an ace, it doesn't really matter that you have a "blocker". If the flop comes Axx, you won't get 3 streets of value from any one pair hand that you beat, because villain will know you have at least top pair. If he can't beat top pair, jack kicker, he's not paying you off. Ergo, he'll only give you action if he has AQ+ or two pairs, a set etc.

I wrote more about reverse implied odds and the perils of AJ in a thread a couple of days ago.
I'm sorry but that's got to be nonsense
You're saying that it's not worth picking up SB and BB?, it's not enough cash? If someone calls than folds, it's still money.

If we don't get action....GOOD.... FREE money for me

 
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Sat Oct 19, 2013, 07:57 PM
(#9)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
You're saying that it's not worth picking up SB and BB?
I'm not saying that at all. I'm talking about reverse implied odds.

As you know, I'm a big fan of stealing the blinds, but we're not talking about stealing the blinds here. We're talking about opening UTG, when we're likely to get called or raised.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sat Oct 19, 2013, 11:51 PM
(#10)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
I'm not saying that at all. I'm talking about reverse implied odds.

As you know, I'm a big fan of stealing the blinds, but we're not talking about stealing the blinds here. We're talking about opening UTG, when we're likely to get called or raised.

Reverse implied odds or not
I know you're talking about UTG and that's what I'm talking about also. You can still steal the blinds from UTG
 
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Mon Oct 21, 2013, 05:58 PM
(#11)
anti5ive's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 225
will you win enough times to make it profitable to raise utg with A10 ?
 
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Tue Oct 22, 2013, 03:15 AM
(#12)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by anti5ive View Post
will you win enough times to make it profitable to raise utg with A10 ?
On a very tight table it might be worth it. If you get action you have easier decisions. On a loose table it will be more difficult to know where you stand. I used to raise ATs UTG. I've dropped it from my range now though.
 
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Tue Oct 22, 2013, 11:37 AM
(#13)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by anti5ive View Post
will you win enough times to make it profitable to raise utg with A10 ?
Depends

What are the notes on the players?
What's your stack size?
What's theirs?
Are you in profit for the session?

At 100NL for October
Out of 56,981 hands played this month
Saw ATs and ATo a total of 91 times UTG
Folded preflop 68 times
I played 14 times ATs and 9 times ATo UTG

Lost 2 times for a total of $16.68 (showdown)
Won 12 times pre flop
Won 1 time on flop
Won 3 times on turn
Won 5 times on showdown
For a total of $107.11 net
C All-In Adj of $107.11 net
BB/100 117.70

Is it worth it ....... YES
(but only if you know how to play)

In this hand I don't remember exactly what happen, but in my notes, I have him as a fish, 1 table and plays often



In this hand, BB and SB are tight regulars



It is not recommended especially if you're a beginner. If you're not a winning player, it could be very dangerous. Will it affect your BRM? Will you blame variance for losing with those hands?

GL
 
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Tue Oct 29, 2013, 04:34 AM
(#14)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
With ATo, zoom 6max 5NL, UTG, for me:

Hands seen 60

Hands played 13, won 7, lost 6

Won 1.13$

Mostly I have won blinds 0.07$ and lost mostly to 3Bet -0.15$


ATs:

Hands seen 21

Hands played 21, won 12, lost 9

Won 1.16$

Mostly I have won blinds 0.07$ and medium pots. lost most often to 3Bet -0.15$
 

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