Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions /

Donkers!!

Old
Default
Donkers!! - Mon Oct 14, 2013, 07:14 PM
(#1)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Hi guys,

Something that I am finding pretty often on 2nl full ring zoom is villains donking into the preflop raiser on the flop. I really don't know how to react to these. I am finding it happening more and more often. Problem is, is that I feel I can't call when I don't have anything since I will only have 6 outs to make a potential TPTK hand on the turn, etc. I feel I don't have the odds to call the donk bet and therefore fold. Donking frustrates me because it stops me making my cbet, and I think it frustrates because I feel that they're bluffing, but I don't want to spew chips if they do have something even if it is small when I am not going to hit my 6 outer. I think it's occurring when I don't hit my percieved range - that's if they're thinking that far!

Much needed help.

What do you guys do?

Does anybody know what donking means at these microstakes?


And yes I know it depends, but on average what donking usually means, or donking by villian types.

Cheers,

Pullin1988

Last edited by pullin1988; Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:17 PM..
 
Old
Default
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 07:24 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,819
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
It depends on the villain.
I know that if I think an opp IN position is trying to steal, I'm donking the flop with ATC if I call a raise from them. That way they don't know whether I have it or not and if they don't have a hand... they can't call. It's a tool that I use to counteract an opp stealing too often in position against me.
I also size the bet where I have a hand, which means that if the opp missed the flop, it IS a -EV call for them... which is why they can't call if they don't have a hand... unless they like losing chips to me on average.

From inexperienced opps, donkbets are normally made hands (at least a pair)... so if I can't beat that or if they don't give me the right odds to call I need to fold and wait for a better situation.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)

to counteract it.. stop stealing so much or raise the flop bet (if you think they'd fold). If they're stationy, then only play real hands.


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by JWK24; Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:27 PM..
 
Old
Default
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 07:43 PM
(#3)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Cheers JWK24
 
Old
Default
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 07:48 PM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
John's given some great insight here.

This subject is another one on my to-do list for my blog. I've had the title - "When to donk, and how to react to donkbets" - sitting my Word document for ages. As usual with my promises, you'll have to wait a while for the blog, but maybe some others can chime in with how they react to getting donked into.

One thing I'll say now though is that although getting donked into is really annoying, you should consider that the villain is often saving you money, because you can fold your air without even "wasting" some c-betting money. If the villain had a pair, he was always calling your c-bet. So when he donks and you fold, he just missed out on a street of value, while you saved a bet. Annoying as they may be, donkbets by bad players help your bottom line.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 09:54 PM
(#5)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
Hi Pullin

Glad you aske d this as I have exact sam e thing...and im not just argeeing for agrreeing sakes but what is writen her e is great advice

donk bets are from usually "weak" hands but in micros it weak made...I am talking purely from a SNG perspective though however i bet cash plays the sam e in this case

I once said to a 3 star player nice donk bet and i think he thought i called him a donk ..it kinda tilted him

rolo
 
Old
Default
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 11:48 PM
(#6)
slettuce's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 221
I'm not a cash game player, but want to say what John said but in a different way/yet the same....ummmmmmm, so here's my 2 cents.
If you are raising into a player that has a stack size that can cripple you, and you are wanting a call, then you need to be prepared to call a shove before making the decision on the size of the preflop raise. But if you want to see if you hit your hand on a flop then size your preflop raise accordingly so when you get shoved on you loose 2 or 3 BB, which makes folding hands like AK on wet boards so much easier.
It's a horrible feeling being in a trap that you've set turning "rogue".......

if you are digging a grave, don't put yourself in it.....kinda counter productive....bury the villian and take his chips with confidence or don't dig a grave.

Sorry for rambling, and again I'm not a cash game player, but maybe there's something in my reply that might help you with the "donker" issue.

Oh and this is why I don't play cash games, I don't like that not being in control feeling and playing against opp's that can bully me with money, so I stick to knocking them out of tournaments, but that's me rambling again, but there are tons of "donks" in tournaments too and I kinda like having them around.

Last edited by slettuce; Tue Oct 15, 2013 at 12:00 AM..
 
Old
Default
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 04:51 AM
(#7)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Cheers guys for the great advice.

I am going to change what I wrote about the frustration. I get frustrated because I don't understand donk betting - I really appreciate the help with this.

I will outline below a strategy to deal with donk bets on what I have learnt above.

-If a LP donks on the flop and hero has air, then I will treat this as villian is saving me money by not allowing me to c-bet.
- When I have sufficient reads on my opponent, e.g. I had a great sample size on their donk stats and the stat was high, say 70%, then I can adjust knowing that they might have air more often, and so there might be a profitable situation where I can raise them on the flop as a bluff, hoping to take down the pot there and then. If villain has low donk stats then I will treat this as a made hand
- Add the donk bet to my weapon aresenal against villains that steal too often as they will more then often have air.

Sorry slettuce I didn't quite understand what you wrote, but that's me not understanding about all this shoving stuff. Could you please write what you wrote again, but for a dummmies (lol) as I really appreciate your advice.


Cheers guys/gals,


P.S. I was also thinking that in certain situations where you make a set, donk betting may make you appear weak, and therefore you may be able to induce a bluff raise on the flop by say a maniac who was the preflop raiser (showing more aggression, but appearing possibly weak): then you shove, printing money!

Pullin1988

Last edited by pullin1988; Tue Oct 15, 2013 at 06:20 AM.. Reason: Further thinking
 
Old
Default
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 11:04 AM
(#8)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Hi Pullin1988,

I will Donk bet at 2NL if I hit a strong hand (trips+) against a passive play who has finally raised, as they will (almost) always continue with AK even if they have missed and defiantly with an overcard / top pair, but may not nessercerlly with those.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 11:22 AM
(#9)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Good point.

Cheers Grade B

Pullin1988
 
Old
Default
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 01:18 PM
(#10)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I'll write more about it on the eventual blog, but your plans sound pretty solid, pullin.

Most of the time, when someone (especially me) donks, they are "polarized". They are generally donking with very weak hands (when they want you to fold), and very strong hands (when they expect you to pay them off). With medium strength hands (like top pair), check-calling is usually the better line, as it gets value without bloating the pot. (Check-calling the flop, and then donking the turn is an interesting line to take with top pair, I think).
At 2NL, villains will routinely donk with top pair, and this *can* be profitable, but only because the PFR will sometimes call with worse. What's crucial in improving your winrate is finding out what specific villains are donking with. If they donk with TPTK, then you can fold your air. If they donk with worse pairs and draws, you might have great success by bluff-raising their donkbets. But don't try bluff-raising a donkbet by a nitty set-miner. He'll show up with a set almost always.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 05:05 PM
(#11)
slettuce's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by pullin1988 View Post
Sorry slettuce I didn't quite understand what you wrote, but that's me not understanding about all this shoving stuff. Could you please write what you wrote again, but for a dummmies (lol) as I really appreciate your advice.
In cash games you don't know how much the "donker's" bankroll is, so his shove could be petty cash to him, but big for you.
This is why I don't play cash games....................yet.

In tournaments we all start with the same stack no matter how rich or good we are. So I like a donk, because in the right spot I will bust them, and they can't rebuy, they are gone and my stack grows.

Is that making sense now?
 
Old
Default
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 07:23 PM
(#12)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by slettuce View Post
Is that making sense now?
I understand you I think.

But we're discussing a particular play, which is made by both good players and random donks. The donkbet: a bet made by someone who called your pre-flop raise when out of position.
e.g. You raise on the button, the big blind calls. The flop comes A72, and before you even have the chance to make your continuation bet, the villain donkbets the flop.


Bracelet Winner
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com