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Setmining situations

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Setmining situations - Thu Oct 17, 2013, 09:01 AM
(#1)
morduk666's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 84
Hey guys, not feeling very clear about this situation. Xflixx says its unprofitable to setmine in this spot. A possible 3bet might occur after we call and stack size from villain who opened is not big enough. It's a bit confusing as it seems the odds we're getting are right 1:20 from villain. Does the possibility of getting 3bet makes this situation -EV? If we get 3bet is is possible we might still get right odds if the villain calls? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this



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Thu Oct 17, 2013, 10:59 AM
(#2)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
What I said in that spot is more of a technical basis for how to approach these kinds of situations and it definitely applies to most stakes where 3-betting preflop is a common weapon to be found.

If youre looking at the numbers alone, you can actually assume that at 2NL there's a decent chance setmining might still be profitable. The average microstakes opponent may get his stack in rather light postflop and there isn't much 3-betting going on preflop that might prevent you from seeing a flop here.

Something that can also add some extra value specifically at these low stakes is that more people might enter the pot behind thus juicing up your implied odds.


Live Trainer



 
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Thu Oct 17, 2013, 11:40 AM
(#3)
morduk666's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 84
I see, ty for reply

I was looking through my hands, 22-99 called 3bet for setmining purposes. At first it looked like the odds are right ussually it's 6BB to call and villain has 90bb left.The money in the middle makes the odds better than 1:15. Well setmining OOP in 3bet pots is loosing play i quess, or isn't it? The results tell their story:











Isn't as profitable as I thought it should be. Maybe I need to tweak my postflop play. But it seems that villains get very cautious especially when I tend to do that OOP. Maybe someone had or has similar problem? What things should I concentrate on these like spots? For now I stop calling 3bets OOP,except if the pot is multiway..

Last edited by morduk666; Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 12:30 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 17, 2013, 01:56 PM
(#4)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I never set mine in 3bet pots even if you hit you dont always get a full stack off villain, its well annoying when players set mine in 3 bet pots and stack my aces it happens way to often to me im running horribly with my big pairs.

As for set mining in a single raised pot im calling in any position with small pairs unless im in the blinds vs a late position opener, i would like to know what felix recommends flatting in mp vs a UTG open then if he folds 22, im sure it can be profitable against bad players but against a competent player i wonder what he call with MP then.
 
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Thu Oct 17, 2013, 05:53 PM
(#5)
morduk666's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
I never set mine in 3bet pots even if you hit you dont always get a full stack off villain, its well annoying when players set mine in 3 bet pots and stack my aces it happens way to often to me im running horribly with my big pairs.

As for set mining in a single raised pot im calling in any position with small pairs unless im in the blinds vs a late position opener, i would like to know what felix recommends flatting in mp vs a UTG open then if he folds 22, im sure it can be profitable against bad players but against a competent player i wonder what he call with MP then.
Hey Mike, why never? In multiway situations odds tend to get juicy. Yeah it seems I dont get full stack often enough, and my redline losses take the most money. At first look it doesn't seem I need to win whole stack from villain. Mathematics looks like this in my attempt : If I invest 6bb for setmining purposes and win 12% loose 88% so 44bb minimum to breakeven(88 times I loose 6bb so another 12 should make up for it ((88*6)/12)). Usually there is already 13.5bb as we face a 3bet(1.5+3+9) so we need to take from the villain only 30.5bb postflop. On the flop standart 3bet pot size goes about 19.5bb (13.5bb+our 6bb call). If villain c-bets both flop and turn we should be in profit.One standart 2/3 bet on the flop (13bb taken) and one half sized bet on the turn (20bb taken) summing all we had taken 33bb from the villain +13.5 dead money wich is more than enough. But the graphs shows other story. Does those graphs could mean I get 3bet light often, so villains usually don't stack off, and the best I will get is one c-bet? I believe there is logical explanation to this situation. I have red a lot recomendations to not call 3bet for setmining purposes. But why is it wrong? If 44bb is breakeven point, then it means if we sure villain with 100bb stack will stack off 50% of the time(or villains range is shaped so that 50% holdings are stacking off) we're making money.

P.S I have a feeling it might be sooo much wrong Still hope someone will share their wisdom and make all this clear.

Last edited by morduk666; Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 06:08 PM..
 
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Sun Oct 20, 2013, 08:15 AM
(#6)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Well im sure someone will tell you that you can set mine in 3 bet pots sometimes HU but i dont know when it would be a good idea unless theres a multi way pot.

I did set mine in 3 bet pots when i 1st started playing poker and my graph looked like yours so i stopped doing it, maybe on reg tables when you have reads that a player will stack off every time he 3bets you can set mine but at zoom i think its best to just fold with no reads because if you set mine every time someone raises to 45c 50c and you miss its gonna cost alot of money.

If you miss 10 times thats 1 stack lost then if you hit and get half a stack its just pointless id prefer to just fold myself unless someone tells me theres a better way to go about set mining in 3 bet pots il keep to my method that i know works.

Did you read verneers book where he shows how he lost money every time he calls with 99-JJ KJ-KQ A9s-AQs AJ-AQ in the blinds?

Well if he was losing money with that range OOP what makes you think you can profit by set mining OOP in a 3bet pot where players are either 3betting a n utted range or 3betting trash that they are gonna put a 1 and done bet in on the flop.

I would think there is gonna be a time to set mine in a 3bet pot IP but OOP il just fold unless it multiway, i never take my money off the table when i double up so i end up speculating more vs big stacks so if he 3bets me il go set mining and sometimes you get a massive pot and other times you lose 50c i guess its all right putting in 50c for a shot at 200bb but 100bb i think il just fold.
 
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Sun Oct 20, 2013, 08:36 AM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Here is my graphs for 5NL 22-99.

Open raised


Called a 2bet (I would be IP every time except if im in blinds VS EP open or a multiway pot)


Called a 3bet (Most of these calls would be where i open the BU get min raised and i flat)
 
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Sun Oct 20, 2013, 11:46 AM
(#8)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
FWIW, 55-22 aren't profitable set-mining hands for me either, in 6-max at least. The baby pairs are more likely to get over-setted, and also don't flop decent open-ended straight draws, so they aren't great hands to call raises with, especially when OOP.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:19 PM
(#9)
PinoyWonder's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 141
I thought it was only profitable to set mine 3bet pots when both of you are deep stacked (175BB+)?
 

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