Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

50NL 6Max: 99 in bb vs aggressive btn and sb

Old
Default
50NL 6Max: 99 in bb vs aggressive btn and sb - Thu Oct 17, 2013, 03:38 PM
(#1)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
This hand is from a regular 50NL 6-Max table.

The btn is running 32/25/16.7 with 100% cbet and has open raised most hands on the btn that have folded to him.

The sb is running 21/17/16% 3bet. He has 3 bet the btn twice earlier getting called once and getting a fold once. He seems solid and has shown down AKo and J9s in the 3et pots that went to showdown.

I didnt like the idea of calling a 3b oop and didnt want to give the btn a chance to raise. Plus calling kinda tells them what my range is. I felt and would be tough to play post flop.

I seriously considered 4betting though. I hadnt gotten out of line and had only shown down strong hands. Both villains had shown they could fold. Postflop was going to be a problem if I got called though. I was running 29/26/12

Did I miss an opportunity +ev here or does folding seem best?



Thanks!

Roland GTX
 
Old
Default
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 04:27 PM
(#2)
maDe91's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 47
Let me start off with saying that that's a really nasty spot... I never played NL50 but, still I'd love to give my opinion on this hand and hopefully I'll say something that's actually usefull for you :P

I'd say it really depends on how good you think you'd fair against the SB postflop . If he plays pretty straight forward postflop (60-70% Cbet and low turn Cbet) I'd be more inclined to cold call instead of folding because I do think you should be ahead of his range and find out where your at pretty early in the hand.

I think cold calling actually makes your range look stronger then 4betting, since you'd probably cold call with hands like QQ/KK and maybe AA so I think the button would only 4bet hands that crush you in that case anyways. (you do kinda price him in to take a flop IP though which might be troublesome).

As for 4betting i'd only take the 4bet if I think it makes straight up profit. Say you 4bet to $12 you'd need to get 2 fold roughly 2/3 of the time to break even. So if you expect them to both fold more then 66% of the time I'd take the 4bet over folding (assuming you won't make huge mistakes if they do play back by either calling or 5betting)

imo all 3 options are valid and your decision should be made based on your assumptions of how both vilains react to your action although I personally always take the safe route (fold) if I am not sure which option is the best.

Hope some of this might be usefull for you and I'd love to hear other people's opions on this one aswell as this seems like a really tough spot to me!

Last edited by maDe91; Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 04:33 PM..
 
Old
Default
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 05:12 PM
(#3)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Hi Roland,

Like usual, here's my 2 cents without any notes

First, his bet looks weird 5x??
Might be to eliminate you from the hand
At 50Nl, I've seen this often, player is getting ready to go all in with AK if 4 bet
( if I knew the players name, I could check my notes)
On this hand I would call and re-evaluate
Check/Fold if A or K on flop
 
Old
Default
Fri Oct 18, 2013, 05:39 AM
(#4)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Thanks for your thoughts guys!

I doubt I have much more than 50% FE at best if I 4bet. But 4betting does give me initiative and allows we to rep a premium hand if I get called. So rather than check-folding to an A or K on the flop, perhaps a pf 4b would allow me to barrel or float an A or K on the flop? Athough, bet folding to a 5b doesnt sound to profitable...

Calling an re-evaluating seems to be outside my skill level here. I put quite a few 10x, Jx, Qx, Kx and Ax hands in both of their ranges. If I call, then the btn will presumably call behind. Nearly half the deck will be possible overcards to my 99.

Folding was the low variance option I guess.

Hopefully Gareth or Felix will share their thoughts on the hand.

Thanks

Roland GTX
 
Old
Default
Fri Oct 18, 2013, 06:57 AM
(#5)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Greg,

Here are my thoughts:
If this was a zoom hand, I think I'm folding.

Now given this is a regular table, I think there might be some meta game going on here as you describe.
V6 seems to be exploiting the BTN quite well as you say he has raised his BTN at almost all the opportunity he got.
You've also seen V1 3bet J9s, so this might be a situation where V1 is aware that V6 is opening too loose from the BTN and could adjust by 3betting a wider range to resteal. Obviously, your observant of the situation so now you know that V6 knows that V1 is stealing a wide range. But does V1 know that V6 knows that V1 is stealing a wide range? We haven't seem them defend vs a 3bet I assume?
Personally I think we can also exploit this by 4bet bluffing with weak hands from the BB I think with blockers Ax, Kx type of hands. We don't want to over do this because then both villains will know that we know what they know and will adjust accordingly. Given the table dynamic, I think there is some merit in cold calling with 99. By calling we keep V1s weak hands in and play them in position. We also force V6 to be honest. By calling, we won't allow V6 to 4bet bluff. If we 4bet 99 we will get action from better hands and fold out their bluffs. But the downside to this is that we might give V1 good odds to call with broadway connectors, so we have to be aware of the board texture and take it from there. When we call, our hand will look like AQ, AJs, JJ, TT, 99 so we also have to be aware of what they perceive our range to be.

Sandtrap makes a good observation that the SB is 3betting to 5x instead of a standard 4x, it could maybe have to do with the stack sizes. Maybe this could be an attempt to build the pot with a strong hand when they think that the BTN will get fed up from them. Unless we have seen them 3bet to that amount previously with J9s? I think this situation as a whole is really information dependent.

With that said, I think the standard line would be to fold. But given the table dynamic we could call and maybe 4bet with blockers instead.

I'll keeping this open for Dave/Gareth/Felix
 
Old
Default
Fri Oct 18, 2013, 10:56 AM
(#6)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland GTX View Post
This hand is from a regular 50NL 6-Max table.

The btn is running 32/25/16.7 with 100% cbet and has open raised most hands on the btn that have folded to him.

The sb is running 21/17/16% 3bet. He has 3 bet the btn twice earlier getting called once and getting a fold once. He seems solid and has shown down AKo and J9s in the 3et pots that went to showdown.

I didnt like the idea of calling a 3b oop and didnt want to give the btn a chance to raise. Plus calling kinda tells them what my range is. I felt and would be tough to play post flop.

I seriously considered 4betting though. I hadnt gotten out of line and had only shown down strong hands. Both villains had shown they could fold. Postflop was going to be a problem if I got called though. I was running 29/26/12

Did I miss an opportunity +ev here or does folding seem best?

Thanks!

Roland GTX
Hey Roland GTX,

This is way above my 'pay' scale, so will qualify my thoughts with the prefix 'IMHO'... My initial view was an easy fold p/f, but given the table dynamics coupled with the fact that YOU haven't got out of line it looks like a perfect spot to squeeze [... although think I would prefer to do this with TT+ AQs+ etc]

I agree with you / George... If you simply call it polarises your range & gives Villain 6 a good price to come along for the ride & I'm not sure we're hitting a set here often enough to flat profitable in the long run.

Interested what the experts have to say...

GL at the tables,

BR Tony
 
Old
Default
Fri Oct 18, 2013, 11:03 AM
(#7)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigy237 View Post
I'm not sure we're hitting a set here often enough to flat profitable in the long run.
Hey Tony, we are definitely not calling for set value here. If we are calling its because our hand plays well against the SB bluffing range which we suspect him to be 3betting light as OP described. If they don't have a 3bet bluff range then folding is the right option imo.
 
Old
Default
Fri Oct 18, 2013, 11:24 AM
(#8)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Hey Tony, we are definitely not calling for set value here. If we are calling its because our hand plays well against the SB bluffing range which we suspect him to be 3betting light as OP described. If they don't have a 3bet bluff range then folding is the right option imo.
Hey George,

Sorry I wasn't suggesting we were set mining... but the problem I see with flatting p/f is that when faced with o/cards OTF in a 3bet pot Vs 1 or more Villains we will have little option but to fold to a cbet / bet, hence why I thought it would be more preferable to either fold or squeeze p/f.

BR,

Tony

Last edited by Prodigy237; Fri Oct 18, 2013 at 11:48 AM.. Reason: Added
 
Old
Default
Fri Oct 18, 2013, 03:04 PM
(#9)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
The problem with 4betting is that if villain 5bets us we are going to have a tough decision.
Folding looks ideal to me and calling is my second choice here.
I would 4bet only for value if SB villain was playing way out of line.
 
Old
Default
Tue Oct 22, 2013, 10:48 AM
(#10)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
I was running 29/26/12
This is an interesting piece of information in this puzzle. To me, this is reason to expect to go with 99. It is also a reason to expect opponent's not to fold TT+AQ to you ever, whether they call a four-bet or move all-in. Similarly it is a reason to expect small blind to be flat calling some hands like 77-88, KQs, AJ, if you make it say, 11.50, and BTN folds.

So basically I think that, if you four-bet, you need to go with it preflop, but that its not particularly going to be a great spot to go with it. There is nothing overwhelming telling us we can stack off against the small blind.

So let's think of this hand as a bluff.

As four-bet bluffs go, I couldn't pick a worse hand. We don't block any strong hands, in fact we block weaker hands like J9s, 98s, A9s, which we would expect our opponent to three-bet bluff with.

I would not flat call either.

Reasons

1) BTN can still reopen the action, the times he does we lose our call
2) Our hand doesn't play well postflop in this situation, we will be barreled by these villains on boards with T,J,Q,K,A overcards. Also, there is no reason to think we will be paid off handsomely when we flop a set.
3) Our hand looks exactly like what it is. This will hurt in department 2.

If we were going to have a four-bet value range, I would go with JJ+AK. If we were to have a four-bet bluff range, I would go with AXs and KXs. If we were to have a flatting range, I would pick hands like AQs, KQs, and if you wanted to get wild, JTs, AJs, QJs.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com