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Pocket Ace - love em hate em

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Pocket Ace - love em hate em - Mon Nov 04, 2013, 12:44 PM
(#1)
0verhiller's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3
BronzeStar
Hi All,
I was in a tourney last Sunday that had over 3000 entrants and had just made it into the money with an average stack. Here's the situation: I'm on the button with pocket aces. The bully of the table (who has been going all in every 2nd or 3rd hand) and has a ton of chips goes all in from 1st position, the next 2 persons behind him call his all in both having less than 10 big blinds each and I decided to call which put me all in as well. The bully had pocket 10's and gets trips on the river and ends all 3 of us for the tourney. Question: In light of the fact that there was already 3 all ins before me and that my tournament life was at stake, should I have folded?
Good luck at the tables all!!
 
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Mon Nov 04, 2013, 01:52 PM
(#2)
Fadyen's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,917
Hi 0verhiller,

In this spot I am never folding AA. You have the best hand by far and are in a great spot to more than double up and put you in a really nice position in the tournament. Some people are of the thinking that because the pot is multiway that AA is less valuable which is not true. Of course the overall equity to win does go down somewhat, but the reward for winning the hand goes up at the same time and you are still favourite to win the hand.

I think this is a classic case of being results orientated, which you shouldn't do in poker. you got unlucky that one of the villains hit a 2-outer but your descision to go all-in was correct.



Tournament of Champions Winner 2013

Bracelet Winner

 
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Mon Nov 04, 2013, 04:21 PM
(#3)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0verhiller View Post
Hi All,
I was in a tourney last Sunday that had over 3000 entrants and had just made it into the money with an average stack. Here's the situation: I'm on the button with pocket aces. The bully of the table (who has been going all in every 2nd or 3rd hand) and has a ton of chips goes all in from 1st position, the next 2 persons behind him call his all in both having less than 10 big blinds each and I decided to call which put me all in as well. The bully had pocket 10's and gets trips on the river and ends all 3 of us for the tourney. Question: In light of the fact that there was already 3 all ins before me and that my tournament life was at stake, should I have folded?
Good luck at the tables all!!

NO

CHANCE

IN

HELL!!!


You should be high-fiving your monitor,not considering folding.

Yes,it is true that with 3,4 or 5 players involved in the pot,the chances of your aces holding will decrease. But the EV will NOT,because the amount of chips you'll accumulate in the times your aces hold will be so great and then you can be left in a much better spot in those MTT's and SNG's when they do hold to win.

Plus,in this particular spot,you say that the money bubble had just burst. Players with stacks that are lagging behind will start to shove a wider range of hands here,now that they are no longer faced with a total blank they'll look to gamble and chip up instead of folding and ladder climbing another spot or three. You already know that the bully HAS to be shoving wide,there's no way he's had a hand every time he's been getting it in,instead he's playing the bully boy with his stack. You have Aces,THIS is the spot that you've waited for. The two smaller stacks are very likely shoving super wide as well...they're short,the bubble has burst and they're looking at all those chips in the middle. Hell,I'm pretty tight myself and if I'm sitting on a less than 10BB stack in an MTT after the bubbles has burst and I see two shoves in front of me...you take that plus all the dead money in the pot from the blinds (assuming THEY both fold...) and the antes and I'm like to go with a hand like 54s even. Why not? If we hit,now we have a playable stack,if not what did we lose? Another table rotation or two? What's that worth,one ladder spot or two,maybe? That could be pennies in some MTT's,not worth passing on a spot wherein we could get a huge return on committing our short stack.

And if they players are more competent and tighter then they very likely could be holding blockers against each others outs in their hands...say you're up against the 1010 along with AK and KQ...2 of the 10's needed for the AK and KQ hands to make a straight are already accounted for,with 2 kings out the possibility of our losing to trip K's is small and so on.

We always want to be on the lookout for the best situations and scenarios,having what we KNOW is the best hand at the time we're committing our stack,which is what we'll be doing when we get it in with our aces here,is one of those spots. The only way I would fold here is if it's a satellite tourney and I'm already comfortably chipped up to achieve my goal of securing the finish I need for it to be a successful satellite.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Mon Nov 04, 2013 at 04:29 PM..
 
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Mon Nov 04, 2013, 05:22 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
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I agree with Moxie... there is a ZERO percent chance that I'm folding here.

Yes, a % of the time I'll be out, but I'm the one in the hand that will win the highest % of the time and when I do win, I get a deep run and a good bit more $$$.

Good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Nov 04, 2013, 05:49 PM
(#5)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
AA is the nuts - so never fold it preflop.

UNLESS you are close to the bubble for a satellite and you can just fold to the prize - then it can be correct to fold AA preflop.
 
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What about POCKET kings? - Mon Nov 04, 2013, 08:58 PM
(#6)
TFFFGB's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 10
I can see with AA...very hard to fold that hand...ever...its even hard to fold it post flop!

But what about pocket kings? That's a ...shiftier hand to play if you have 3 all ins already...theres bound to be someone with Ax...and would you risk your tournament life for a flip like that? Or would you fold?

If it was just heads up, i probably wouldnt fold but against a few players?
 
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Mon Nov 04, 2013, 10:08 PM
(#7)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFFFGB View Post
I can see with AA...very hard to fold that hand...ever...its even hard to fold it post flop!

But what about pocket kings? That's a ...shiftier hand to play if you have 3 all ins already...theres bound to be someone with Ax...and would you risk your tournament life for a flip like that? Or would you fold?

If it was just heads up, i probably wouldnt fold but against a few players?
In the scenario that Overhiller presents here,KK is a snap call as well. Or rather shove to keep it "only" 4-ways,since the blinds are still to act.
 
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Mon Nov 04, 2013, 10:41 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
I agree with Moxie on KK too. I'm snap-calling and hope the others are counterfeiting each other's aces.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Nov 05, 2013, 12:10 AM
(#9)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I agree with Moxie on KK too. I'm snap-calling and hope the others are counterfeiting each other's aces.

John (JWK24)
Which many times they will be.

TFFFGB, you see an AK,an AQ and an under pair get turned over and you folded your KK here then you're gonna be PO'ed. Or at least you SHOULD be. Ax? Shoot.I'd be hoping they ALL have Ax.

I think this is one of those classic examples of needing to separate the idea of "not losing" from the idea of "playing to win". Having a monster in a spot like this that is going to match up very well against the full range of what the 3 villains are likely to have here and folding is playing not to lose. Just after the bubble has burst,1 loose player slamming them in to open and 2 less than 10BB stacks coming along...I seriously doubt I could ever fold any AA,KK,QQ or AK hand. Especially since I would have the shorties covered. Depending on the gap between their stack sizes,mine and the big stack bully's stack I could very well gain chips by beating only the big stack. If I beat all three...YAHTZEE!!!

We want be looking for spots to chip up and try to make a FT and take down a win here,not try to be hanging on for another few ladder spots,which in most MTT payout formats are only paying us a couple of % points on our buy-in investment per spot anyway. Passing on reasonable spots to chip up big in MTT's is probably the single biggest leak that most novice and inexperienced players have when they play MTT's. I recognize it in others because it's something that I struggled with mightily in US players time here and we get a chance to play again I fully intend to cross that one off my leak list.

Ring tables and SNG's (especially STT,HU,50/50's and 18 man's...) are for grinding. 45 and 90 man's as well I guess. Worry about ITM % and ladder climbing in those formats more. But large field MTT's and 180 and 360 man SNG's are all about the binks,the deep runs. THAT'S where the money is in those formats. You HAVE to be willing to gamble and take flips and slight dog shots for good returns in those games because you will NEVER run a high enough ITM % in them to be profitable if you aren't getting some deep runs in the mix.

After a bubble burst,these stack sizes and the player type that the one big stack in this hand was...and we have a premium hand...it really just doesn't get any sweeter than that.
 
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Tue Nov 05, 2013, 11:29 AM
(#10)
Rogger1999's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 489
I would never fold AA when just ITM was reached. You are still favourite to win, even you also have higher chance to loose everything.
 

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