Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

Homework Assignment from Highstakes Wednesdays #3: AKo in 3-Bet Pot

Old
Default
Homework Assignment from Highstakes Wednesdays #3: AKo in 3-Bet Pot - Wed Nov 06, 2013, 04:06 PM
(#1)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
Hi guys,

as promised I'm going to put up this hand from my live training session "Highstakes Wednesdays #3" for you to discuss.

Feel free to comment and discuss all the streets and how you would play them, with probably the most interesting decision being the river.

As pointed out in LT, villain is an unknown but more likely to be a regular than a recreational player.



Live Trainer




Last edited by PSO-xflixx; Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 04:08 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 06, 2013, 04:32 PM
(#2)
chillipops's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,090
I had to come and see it maybe to find out what happened , I am not a cash player but seeing the end he wasn't folding anything there was he ? It is way out of my play but I think discussion will help me learn
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 06, 2013, 06:12 PM
(#3)
Mikey_Luggs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 138
Had so many hands like this lately and it annoys me lol. Yes I want weaker hands to call but for me them calling a 3bet oop then calling the cbet is terrible play. Maybe I need to learn this play as it seems to be working allot for my villains at the moment.
I would sometimes check the flop and sometimes bet same size as you. When I watched it I would also bet the turn if I bet the flop as I don't think it changes or improves his calling range (Shows how much I know lol) After they call 2 streets I would think I am not getting called by anything worse so would also check behind.....followed by a arrrrrrrhhhh lol
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 01:10 AM
(#4)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Hello
It's always suspicious for me if opp calls cbet on the flop like this, mostly dry boards with a K or an A especially in a 3bet pot. I prefer checking the turn IP(fast never OP) and call his not pot sized river bet or if he checks second time bet/fold OTR. With second barrel OTT all Qx (something like KQ or QJ) and worst Ax hands will fold, when in case of checking OTT these hands might think that they are the best hands OTR and may lead to us or call our bet OTR. and our hand will look weaker than it actually is.

Last edited by Shichi-77; Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 01:17 AM..
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 02:24 AM
(#5)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Seems wp.

Ranges are wider in a CO defence vs BTN 3b so there are more 2p combinations than normal. ie AT, QT etc would probably fold MP vs BTN 3b but call CO vs BTN.

There might be a case for bet/folding a third pot OTR because he still has AJ and KQ combinations but we'd be targeting an extremely narrow range of hands that may fold anyway.
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 04:08 AM
(#6)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I suppose that the river spot is too thin for a value bet, the only worse hand you might get called with is AJ, whereas he's snap-calling you with any two-pair hand like he had.

The play on all the other streets seems pretty sensible and are how I would play it.
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 05:10 AM
(#7)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Hi Felix!

For me the turn is the turning point in this hand.

The reg called your 3b oop which for me means A10s+, suited broadways, and some pocket pairs maybe 88+. He then calls on the flop. There are no flush draws. Pocket 55 seems outside his range. But, the A and Q fit with a large part of his range. Would he call your cbet holding KJ, J10? Ax and Qx hands seem most likely. I would expect him to raise a most of the time if he had just flopped a set of Qs or As on this board.

The 10 on the turn I would have thought was a bad card for us if we put him on Ax or Qx. We are splitting with AK, behind AQ, A10 and Q10. We are ahead of QK, QJ and AJ. I doubt J10 is calling here and KJ just got the nuts. If he had a set, I would expect him to raise now if he had slowplayed the flop. Since he called I would discount them from his range leaving the Ax and Qx hands.

The river is a brick. Is he going to call another bet with the three combos we are beating? I wouldn't think so on this board. So, I wouldn't expect to get more value from him.

The question for me becomes "will he fold any of the two pair hands in his range that are beating us?" It seems like AA, QQ and AQ are in your range and fit with your aggresive line. More importantly, KJ is more likely in your pf 3b range than in his 3b calling range as well. Therefore, we can make an arguement for putting the villain all in on the river. You would be betting 142 into a pot of 171. Your line looks super strong and this villain may lay down A10 and Q10 since they are not top two pair. If I were him I would probably lay down anything less than a set in this spot! It seems too unlikely that you are barreling every street on this board with "just a pair".

If we opt to shove the river, you would be betting about 85% of the pot. So, your bluff needs to work about 45% of the time I think to be profitable.

My ranging (and logic) may be way off, especially for these stakes, but this was my take anyway.

Thanks for posting in the forum Felix! This is a great way for us to learn and quite fun to boot

Roland GTX
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 06:04 AM
(#8)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Hello Roland,
Don't you think his line looks strong enough to not shove OTR? you really can't put him on just QT or AT, AQ and QQ are in his range for sure, and maybe 55 and KJ also , KJ might call OTF to probe OTR if Fellix shoves weakness OTT, but had got nuts OTT, and with nuts he checked OTR expecting Fellix's third bet there.
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 06:35 AM
(#9)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Here's my take on the hand: I'm hating the A & Q together OTF
Let's roll back to preflop first. Assuming CO is a regular, they obviously understand Hero is a regular and perhaps with a slight skill advantage them being Team Online Pro so they should be aware that Hero could be 3betting light to defend their BTN but also they should be positionaly aware that by calling they are at a disadvantage playing the remaining hand OOP. With that said, I think I would expect villain to be folding the bottom of their range, 4betting their premiums (KK/QQ(50%),AK) and maybe slow playing AA(50%), 4betting hands that are outside of their calling range. AJo, ATo, KQ, KJ and calling with hands that have equity against Hero's bluffing range: QQ(50%), JJ-77, AQ, AJs, ATs, KQs(50%). Looking at stack size, there might be an argument made for set mining with 20x in implied odds but I think it would be less likely that villain would call with 66-22 because its CO vs BTN and Hero's 3betting range will consists of bluffs a good portion of the time that will not pay off when they do make a set.
I think the critical point of the hand might be OTF; Like I said I’m hating the A & Q together because now my question is, will this be a three street value bet when a big portion of their 3bet calling range and flop continuation range includes AQ? Against their entire range seeing the flop: {AA(50%). QQ(50%), JJ-77, AQ, AJs, ATs, KQs} we have 75% equity but against their continuation range {AA, QQ, AQ, AJs, ATs, KQs} we have 40% equity. So I think by checking back we keep their range wide and control the size of the pot. It would also disguise our hand and we could get value on later streets from a hand like KQ, AJ when those hands would actually fold to three maybe even two bets.
With that said, I think we should be checking back the turn some of the time or checking back rivers as our hand does not look like a 3 street value hand considering the action and board runout.
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 06:40 AM
(#10)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Oh it looks like the hand result is there... wow totally out of what I had ranged him on
In that case: betting flop, checking turn, folding river :p
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 06:59 AM
(#11)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shichi-77 View Post
Hello Roland,
Don't you think his line looks strong enough to not shove OTR? you really can't put him on just QT or AT, AQ and QQ are in his range for sure, and maybe 55 and KJ also , KJ might call OTF to probe OTR if Fellix shoves weakness OTT, but had got nuts OTT, and with nuts he checked OTR expecting Fellix's third bet there.
Hi shichi-77

We can safely assume that both Felix and the villain in this hand are thinking about a million miles beyond my level of thinking. I have never played a single hand at these stakes. So, take what I say with a grain of salt. I misread spots like this several times a day in my own games

But, for me, it seems rather unlikely that the villain would have slowplayed a flopped set as I mention in my first post. The board is getting too wet to risk checking the turn. I would expect a set to bet or check-raise, hoping to get it in on the turn while Felix still has hopes of outdrawing him.

I also think the villain callig the flop with KJ seems unlikely since the only card he can improve with is a 10. Getting a K or a J doesnt help much with an A already on the board. Their is no history between Felix and the villain. This might be a good flop for Felix to c-bet with his whole range making for a light call from the villain. But, the action on the turn looks like both players have real hands.

Therefore, I expect them both to follow thier default lines rather than some crazy leveling scheme. This leaves me with a range of A10, AJ, AQ, AK as well as Q10, QJ, and QK for the villain giving him a one pair or two pair hand. Whereas Felix's range includes the same Ax Qx hands plus QQ, AA and KJ giving him sets and straights as well.

Felix has built the pot every chance he has had from preflop action onward. It is going to be tough for the villain to call a river jam with anything less than a set. But, will the villain be able to lay down two pair often enough (half the time nearly) to make shoving profitable? I have no idea. All I know is that I would often fold to a river jam if I were in the villain's shoes.

Roland GTX
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 07:08 AM
(#12)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Thanks, Roland. Understood
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 09:02 AM
(#13)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
value <----- our hand -----> bluff

If we aren't betting for value, or as a bluff, then we should question why we should bet (this is on the river).

I'm not sure if you need to range merge here with AK, but that could be another consideration you probably need to make at 500nl for balance.
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 10:36 AM
(#14)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Hi all,

Assuming the villain is a reg, I'm actually checking back this turn quite a bit. We really don't have a 3 street hand vs. a reg as they are just never calling down for basically stacks with AJ or worse here. A solid reg will often fold worse 1 pair hands to a sizable turn barrel actually, but we should be able to get a 2nd street on the river quite often if we check back the turn, as most regs will consider a bet/fold or check/call on the end depending on how strong their 1 pair hand is.

As played I like checking the river down obviously without a 3 street hand. Which Felix you must agree we only have a 2 street hand since you didn't bet a blank river.

Since checking back somewhere makes sense with a 2 street hand, here's how I see it:

Checking flop: I don't like it much, this is a flop texture we would be expected to cbet after 3-betting pre. I might mix this in after having history, so villain has a harder time ranging me, but until the history develops I think we should simply cbet to protect our non-ace range here when we're cbetting to rep the big ace.

Checking river: By default if we already bet twice I like this, but this exposes us to a turn check/raise which we'll be facing when he's got AQ, QQ, 55, and maybe AT... granted, this isn't a large number of hand combos, but we do have some river equity to realize with 4 to 7 outs to beat these hands. If we are going to risk exposure to being blown off this equity, then we need appropriate compensation (reward) to assume that risk. This compensation could be villain calling a 2nd time with worse 1 pair hands, which I don't think is likely here without definitive reads.

Checking turn: I prefer this because it allows us to realize our equity vs. better hands, increases the frequency with which we get 2 streets from worse 1 pair hands (when villain responds to our turn check by betting or check/calling river), and it protects our entire turn checking range to an extent... since we will often have hands like KK/JJ/KQ/Ax when we check back turn, and villain bombing the river makes us throw up a bit, having AK in our turn checking range as well makes it more difficult/risky for the villain to bomb river light and put us in a sticky spot.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner




Last edited by TheLangolier; Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 10:40 AM..
 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 08, 2013, 02:15 AM
(#15)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
Thanks everyone for contributing on this one, always good to get some discussion going! I'm going to quote some posts to make it easier addressing some issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland GTX View Post
The question for me becomes "will he fold any of the two pair hands in his range that are beating us?" It seems like AA, QQ and AQ are in your range and fit with your aggresive line. More importantly, KJ is more likely in your pf 3b range than in his 3b calling range as well. Therefore, we can make an arguement for putting the villain all in on the river.
Definitely a consideration to make as our 3-barreling range on this board is so incredibly strong and we should have at least some bluffs in our range on a board like this. With two blockers to many of the strongest hands (AQ/AT/KJ) and which are most likely in villain's flatting range OOP this is a great candidate so I like that idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
So I think by checking back we keep their range wide and control the size of the pot. It would also disguise our hand and we could get value on later streets from a hand like KQ, AJ when those hands would actually fold to three maybe even two bets.
With that said, I think we should be checking back the turn some of the time or checking back rivers as our hand does not look like a 3 street value hand considering the action and board runout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Checking turn: I prefer this because it allows us to realize our equity vs. better hands, increases the frequency with which we get 2 streets from worse 1 pair hands (when villain responds to our turn check by betting or check/calling river), and it protects our entire turn checking range to an extent... since we will often have hands like KK/JJ/KQ/Ax when we check back turn, and villain bombing the river makes us throw up a bit, having AK in our turn checking range as well makes it more difficult/risky for the villain to bomb river light and put us in a sticky spot.
I don't like checking back flop and I specifically chose a big size here as flop is going to be the best street to get value from an inelastic range of hands (any A/Q/gutter is going to call for sure against any size).

Checking turn on the contrary might seem like a decent plan, but I think it is going to be too tough for us to make a good decision if villain bets river. It basically comes down to the same number of hands worse hands that would have called a turnbet plus it is unlikely for villain to have a bluffing range OTR on this runout.

I like to go for value on the drawing streets more but I don't like my size here, betting smaller would be much better I think as hands like QJ/KQ and weaker aces are much more likely to call again.

So to sum things up my take on this hand would be:

- either bet 3 streets and turn my hand into a bluff as it is one of the best candidates for it
- or bet smaller OTT leaving villain's range wider and maybe going for a third street OTR then


Live Trainer



 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com