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16NL - x/shove turn line

16NL - x/shove turn line - Thu Nov 07, 2013, 09:58 AM
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
I decided to call here with JTs in the BB expecting the limper to call behind and keep them in the pot.
The BTN is a TAG 16/13/2 (362 Hands)

We could clearly take a x/r line OTF or even lead flop I think but I decided to call to keep the weak player in and I felt that by x/r-ing it would be hard for me to continue when we miss OTT against a good opponent who has position on us. The turn does not change a whole lot and with the odds we are getting I think calling might be kind of bad?

What do you think of the x/shove line I took; Clearly I don't expect 2pair+ to fold but I figured this would put a lot of pressure on Ax/Qx type hands and we might get TP hands to fold a good amount of the time. What do you think? Too ambitious?

Thu Nov 07, 2013, 10:34 AM
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
Don't know if you represent much other that 77 and AQ, and you would raise those OTF 3way some times? Also price its like really close to the odds you have against a hand like AJ. I would just call.
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 10:42 AM
MrFlopes's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 152
I think the raise on the turn always looks stronger. But in this case you are representing almost 77 (You raise AA, QQ and AQ too a iso raise pre, and dont call 33 on the flop). Also, in a board with so many draws and 2 villains you probably raise your set on the flop. But it's a sacary all in in a 3 way pot.
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 11:09 AM
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Calling the flop is ok, but folding the turn is the play
You've got NOTHING, why would you want to continue?
You said he was a TAG!!, that he had position!!, so he's got something to your nothing
So all you were doing is running after a flush (what a fish usually does in my terms)

All in after the turn, looks very fishy, it's definitely not a value bet, it's more a desperate, please don't call, I've got nothing bet....LOL. You rarely see good regular players play that way.

Too ambitious? For sure, it was a fold on the turn
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 01:45 PM
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
He doesn't have AJ+ for sure, he might isolate limper with wider range than 88+,AJ+. He might have there even QT,KJ,JT,T9. and an A on the board is perfect card to dabble barrel. because of your call he might put you on weak Aces, broadways, small pocket pairs . I think you have good fold equity and in the worst case 10 outs. and I think calling there is bad option , when you call you play for implied odds, but you don't have them OTT, it will be too hard to get value OTR when you hit your draw.
Oh sorry you've got requered implied odds to call OTT, you need to win + 0.34 USD OTR to break even but in the such pot it will be not a problem.
Pot Bet to call Outs Draw Odds Pot odds required implied odds $ by Implied odds

7.44 $2.88 $2.88 10 3.70 3.58 0.12 $ 0.34
and if he doesn't have sets there you are winning 1.92$ with a call.
calling OTT seems a good option to me after calculation.

but for me flop is the best street to check raise with the monster. but I'm fish

Last edited by Shichi-77; Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 02:37 PM..
Fri Nov 08, 2013, 05:06 AM
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
Originally Posted by CaRLoS_DZ87 View Post
Don't know if you represent much other that 77 and AQ, and you would raise those OTF 3way some times? Also price its like really close to the odds you have against a hand like AJ. I would just call.
Hey George,

I agree with Carlos in that I'm not sure what hands we're trying to represent when x/shoving OTT other than draws... as think most would raise OTF with TP & sets on such a draw heavy board. Whilst we've got outs [... discounting as these could complete FH / Quads], we're only likely to fold out weak Ax, Qx type hands & we're getting called with 33, 77, QQ, AA, AQ & most likely b/way draws that we're currently losing to e.g. AK, AJ, AT etc.

All in all... I favour a call OTT & re-evaluate OTR, although if we hit we're unlikely to realise much in the way of value.

Tony [Prodigy237]
Fri Nov 08, 2013, 06:30 AM
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
Preflop is very close, I think it probably isn't quite worth it as the limper is short and the Isoraiser will have a very strong range IP against you so you can't work with too much FE postflop in many spots where you need it like here.

I actually think leading flop here postflop might be a decent line that adds a little FE, but once checked I would go for a x/r and expect the limper to just shove his rest with Ax anyway so I'm not afraid of losing him here.

Turnjam on a blank looks pretty much just like what you are actually holding as this is a line you'd probably not take with any valuehands. If I were to raise I'd make it smaller, but since villain's range will be quite strong here I doubt we have much FE after him betting that board twice in a multiway pot.

We do have enough equity to just call though so I'd just do that. Good thing is some outs (K) will actually make him 2 pair so our implied odds aren't that bad either.

Live Trainer

Fri Nov 08, 2013, 04:50 PM
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hey Felix, I like the leading the flop idea in retrospect with the weaker player in the pot and we force the regular to play honest. But what are your thoughts if our donk bet gets raised? Are you calling or do you plan to put the rest in?

Also if we decide to x/r flop, are we planning to get the rest of our money on the flop? And if villain calls our raise what's your plan OTT?

"I doubt we have much FE after him betting that board twice in a multiway pot" I'm assuming you don't think villain would be iso-rasing with Ax and double barreling this turn with Ax?

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