Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

16NL - what do you make of villain's x/r on dry flop

Old
Default
16NL - what do you make of villain's x/r on dry flop - Thu Nov 07, 2013, 10:09 AM
(#1)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Here's a really weird one; I could not clearly come to a conclusion as to what sort of hands villain might take this line with. His stats show up as LAG 30/23/4 (120 Hands)and I haven't seen him take a x/r line before.

Slight chance this could a set, A2, 76 or some random over cards without an Ace like KQ/KJ/QJ? The turn check does not make much sense either unless they hit with their KQ/QJ type of hand and was looking to get called on the river by my PPs figuring I would fold to a turn bet on the overcard?

 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 11:15 AM
(#2)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Here I would 3 bet to $1.50, the pot would then be $3.24 if he called
On the flop I would then bet $2.75
Check the turn if it ever did get to the turn.
I would call a small bet on the river
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 12:12 PM
(#3)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Hope we called the river.

I'd 3b pre like Sandtrap said, but postflop I think you played it pretty standardly.
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 09:25 PM
(#4)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Hey George,

I agree with trap / birdayy & would 3bet with p/f. As for Villain's line post-flop... It seems strange that he would x/r OTF and then 'x' OTT which leads me think he's simply taking a stab with small-mid pps 66; 77; 99; TT or poss o/cards.

I think we can discount sets as would expect him to lead out OTT, but hands like AQ; KQ; QJ are a possibility. That said... it's such a small bet OTR we're getting a good price to make the call.

Tony [Prodigy237]
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 07, 2013, 11:49 PM
(#5)
Low Rated's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 114
Personally I don't usually like 3-betting JJ vs thinking players very often. If he was the type to call into 3-bets wide OOP then I would 3-bet but I really don't want to play JJ in a 4-bet pot if the villain has a tight continuing range vs 3-bets. Additionally, if you think you can get him to double barrel some textures calling into the rage has more merit.

OTF this villain is willing to x/r on a board that would in most cases hit our calling range better than his perceived OR range. He in some cases could be thinking that a c-bet probably wouldn't cause us to fold very often and instead is trying to represent a set. However, if he is bluffing I don't understand why he wouldn't bet the Q OTT, it puts an over card on the board which may fold out some medium PPs and 8x hands that would continue vs an x/r OTF.

Then villain bets OTR. This makes no sense as a bluff. On this dry texture after calling an x/r OTF and checking this turn we are pretty much saying we have some kind of SDV. Why would he bet a 2 OTR when betting the Q OTT would have looked so much stronger? I think the villain was probably trying to get an extra bet out of us OTT by checking the Q and hoping we connected or would take a stab. IMO I don't think we have the best hand here very often.
 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 08, 2013, 12:42 AM
(#6)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
He might have an 8 or 99-TT ,77 is in his PF hand range ,but it wouldn't bet OTR , he saw dry low board and tried to fold all our floats , he didn't like a Q OTT and checked to see what will we do, after your check he thinks that his 8 is still good there and makes thin value bet OTR. I think he would cbet OTF with sets and overs to make his play standard and don't show his hand's real strength. I think he cbets QJ and KQ type hands OTT.
But he might have A2 too . Because I see his hand as weak OTF and OTT and A2 is strong now OTR . If you had some more info about him, you would know what does mean his small bet OTR. I expect a 2 to bet more there and that's why I exclude A2 hand too.
Call is the best option for me.

Last edited by Shichi-77; Fri Nov 08, 2013 at 12:49 AM..
 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 08, 2013, 04:20 AM
(#7)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Villain's taken a really weird line here - pretty much for all the reasons that have already been said.

Like Antonio Esfandiari said on the WSOP Final Table a couple of days ago - if the story doesn't make any sense, it's probably a bluff. Therefore I'd call.
 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 08, 2013, 11:49 AM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Hi George,

I agree with 3-betting a LAG in general here, unless there's a big fish in the blinds we're trying to invite into the pot.

In my experiences at 25NL and 50NL, when the preflop raiser check/raises the flop, they have nothing a large % of the time. So I would definitely continue here and as played snap call the river.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 08, 2013, 04:39 PM
(#9)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
I did not 3bet because they were showing a high 4bet percentage and I did not want to play for stacks with JJ against their MP opens.
Dave, you said "as played snap call the river"; Do you mean that you would consider betting the turn or you like checking back too?
 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 08, 2013, 05:01 PM
(#10)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
I did not 3bet because they were showing a high 4bet percentage
Numbers dictating the way you should play....WRONG
That's were most players lose money
Try playing without a HUD for a month to get the feeling of the game
 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 08, 2013, 05:18 PM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey Geo


Did the villain seem like more of a casual type player? Because his play reminds me of mine at 2nl ... like before learning stuff like c-betting, hand ranging, thinking ahead, etc?


If the villain had a low pair like A2s, or 33, maybe he didn't want to continue with it until he saw the small size of your c-bet, and then misinterpreted that to mean you'd missed the flop and were trying to take the pot away with overs like JT+? So then he made the re-raise for what he thought was for value. And same with the river bet - like maybe he's just looking at his cards and was sizing his bet according to the strength of his hand?


Not sure

Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Nov 08, 2013 at 05:20 PM..
 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 08, 2013, 07:19 PM
(#12)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
Numbers dictating the way you should play....WRONG
That's were most players lose money
Try playing without a HUD for a month to get the feeling of the game
I've been playing poker for >3 years Trap up to 400nl live and online with/without HUD... Feeling of the game is there I assure you
Having a HUD is an advantage, numbers help make calculated guesses and builds an edge.
 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 08, 2013, 07:26 PM
(#13)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Hey Geo


Did the villain seem like more of a casual type player? Because his play reminds me of mine at 2nl ... like before learning stuff like c-betting, hand ranging, thinking ahead, etc?


If the villain had a low pair like A2s, or 33, maybe he didn't want to continue with it until he saw the small size of your c-bet, and then misinterpreted that to mean you'd missed the flop and were trying to take the pot away with overs like JT+? So then he made the re-raise for what he thought was for value. And same with the river bet - like maybe he's just looking at his cards and was sizing his bet according to the strength of his hand?


Not sure
Hi Sam! been awhile since I've heard from ya! Hope all is well...
If I were to try and think as villain, I think they looked at this flop and thought this is a kind of flop that would be hard to hit and if they checked the would expect 100% bet vs missed cbet; that or they had some stat on me SO they figured they'd x/r and get folds; I don't know A2 could make sense perhaps turning their hand into a bluff figuring that it would be hard for them to play with so many overs to their pair; though I think by checking they allow us to see turns with our Ax hands and if an Ace hits they would make two pair over our one pair. Who knows? It's just there are not so many value hands that would take such a line especially when they check the turn
 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 08, 2013, 11:28 PM
(#14)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Dave, you said "as played snap call the river"; Do you mean that you would consider betting the turn or you like checking back too?
No, I meant that after checking back the turn + his river sizing leads me to believe we have the best hand more often than not.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Sat Nov 09, 2013, 04:53 AM
(#15)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Thanks
 
Old
Default
Sat Nov 09, 2013, 08:06 AM
(#16)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Hi Sam! been awhile since I've heard from ya! Hope all is well...
If I were to try and think as villain, I think they looked at this flop and thought this is a kind of flop that would be hard to hit and if they checked the would expect 100% bet vs missed cbet; that or they had some stat on me SO they figured they'd x/r and get folds; I don't know A2 could make sense perhaps turning their hand into a bluff figuring that it would be hard for them to play with so many overs to their pair; though I think by checking they allow us to see turns with our Ax hands and if an Ace hits they would make two pair over our one pair. Who knows? It's just there are not so many value hands that would take such a line especially when they check the turn

It sounds like you were getting the sense that the villain was ranging and capable of deception, so probably my theory about the player being like I was at 2nl is off


Guess the only way to know what the villain had would have been to call - except calling just to satisfy one's curiosity can start to get expensive really quickly, because that's what I do all the time - also, now my Time Vault thread is filled with fish avis that I've gone and tacked on to all my station call hands in bouts of self-loathing lol ... poker can be so harsh on the self-esteem


Hopefully the villain wasn't getting fancy with like 99 or something ... like hopefully it was 22 or whatever. Interesting line to speculate about

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Nov 09, 2013 at 03:58 PM.. Reason: my last sentence made no sense :o
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com