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Betting, but you won't be called by worse...

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Betting, but you won't be called by worse... - Sat Nov 09, 2013, 05:47 AM
(#1)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Hi guys,

I am really struggling with this and getting confused. I hope someone can help. It's the concept of betting, but you can or you won't be called by worse hands. It may be a simple, but I am really struggling. Is there any advice that you can give, or am I being to generic, and that there are too many variables to take into consideration.

Cheers,

Pullin
 
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Sat Nov 09, 2013, 08:54 AM
(#2)
morduk666's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 84
Hey, Pullin. What do you asking in particular? How to recognize situations when bet will be profitable? If that so, my advice would be start concentrating on villains ranges and flop textures, how they interact together. When board looks scary for villain, when it is good for him. That's the concept I'm working on.
 
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Sat Nov 09, 2013, 09:26 AM
(#3)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
I suggest reading this 'Concept of the Week': http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...ns-bet-645508/
 
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Sat Nov 09, 2013, 11:02 AM
(#4)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by pullin1988 View Post
Hi guys,

I am really struggling with this and getting confused. I hope someone can help. It's the concept of betting, but you can or you won't be called by worse hands. It may be a simple, but I am really struggling. Is there any advice that you can give, or am I being to generic, and that there are too many variables to take into consideration.

Cheers,

Pullin

Hi Pullin,

The concept assumes you have a read on the villain you are playing.

say you hold AK of clubs on the button. (playing $1/2 NLHE) you have 1 limp in front of you from a tight passive player and you make it $8 to go, they call.

Flop is QK9 rainbow.

He checks

if you bet big

fold if he has a worse had than top pair

call if he has a better hand.

problem is if you don't have a read on the villain(s) its hard to know but on this board with a possible straight and you continuing to show strength the only players who will call or worse raise are players who have the straight or have the correct odds to make a straight or the odd loose player who has 2 pair or flopped trips and is looking to fill up.


Hopefully one of our more knowledgeable players will come alone and explain it better than I can.

2 reasons to bet are
1. For value - you have the best hand and want the villain to pay you off
2. as a bluff - you don't have the best hand and want the villain to go away.
2a. to pick up dead money in the pot.



Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Nov 09, 2013, 01:05 PM
(#5)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
That's awesome guys.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Just what I wanted.

Cheers

Pullin
 
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Sat Nov 09, 2013, 03:44 PM
(#6)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
2 reasons to bet are
1. For value - you have the best hand and want the villain to pay you off
2. as a bluff - you don't have the best hand and want the villain to go away.
2a. to pick up dead money in the pot.

Grade b
Also #100: Advertising - - setting up a player for a play later. Best not used frequently.

An essential corollary to b's rules: When against aware players your actions must tell a consistent "story". The story you want to tell is situation dependent, so effective bluffs need be consistent with your made hands. When your "story" unexpectedly changes you will be looked up more often.

Another corollary is: "You win more from your opponent's mistakes than from your good play." So giving them opportunities to make mistakes is +EV, while giving opportunities to do the right thing is - EV. This means bad beats are +EV. (Remember, EV is a LONG term measure. )

This is a lot to process. It took years for most us, myself included. But the sooner you become aware the sooner you will incorporate it.


Good decisions are ++EV, but frequently not obvious.
 
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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:46 AM
(#7)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pullin1988 View Post
Hi guys,

I am really struggling with this and getting confused. I hope someone can help. It's the concept of betting, but you can or you won't be called by worse hands. It may be a simple, but I am really struggling. Is there any advice that you can give, or am I being to generic, and that there are too many variables to take into consideration.

Cheers,

Pullin
There are different reasons to make a bet, such as for value or as a bluff. One of the worst things that you can do is make a value bet when there are zero worse hands in your opponent's range that can continue against that bet. You can only lose value, and how much you lose is limited only to how much you bet.

A perfect real world example of betting when you can't be called by worse hands:

$1/2 NL live game, full table
LAG UTG player opens for $12. TAG Hero is UTG+1 with AA and 3-bets to $30. Villain in late position 4-bet shoves for $160 with QQ. UTG folds and hero snap calls. In this situation there are literally zero worse hands in hero's range that will call $130 more. This is a value bet with a premium pair, but it is a disaster of a value bet. Villain gains no value since hero is not able to put any more money into the pot unless he is coin flipping with AK or has a bigger pair.

Betting when you will always/never be called by better/worse hands is at the extreme end of the spectrum of betting situations. There is a way to think about all the hands that fall in between and try to figure out what amount is best to bet. It is called 'leverage'. It boils down to 'spending the least amount possible to make your opponent risk the maximum amount possible.' One source to read about this is in the great book: 'Easy Game vol 2. '
 
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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 05:51 PM
(#8)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Cheers rockerguyAA,

Thanks for the help. As in your example above, I have seen numerous villains shove preflop, and I always think, and have even said to my girlfriend, "I am only calling if I got KK or AA". So in essence without really thinking about it I am saying they won't really be called
by worse - by me anyways. I have also said to my girlfriend I don't know why villains do that, because literally there will pretty much one of two outcomes. Everyone folds and so win a small pot, or you get called by someone who's got the AA and KK and will lose in the long run.

I will get that book as have a good read.

Cheers,

Pullin
 

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