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Pro's and Con's of Min raising from Button?

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Pro's and Con's of Min raising from Button? - Sat Nov 09, 2013, 10:27 AM
(#1)
Taunto_88's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 57
I was wondering if there is a typical strategy for opening from the button for your size? I find min raising from the button we are giving the blinds a really good price to call with marginal holdings? is this what we want? But i also find that min raising from the button it makes it easir to defend a 3 bet with. Is min raising the proper play from button? or 2.5x-3x? open. I have been opening 3x thus far.
 
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Sat Nov 09, 2013, 10:44 AM
(#2)
TweedleBeetl's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,146
minraising from the button WILL give the blinds a really good price to call with marginal holdings and that is NOT what we want. I normally just widen my open range a lot and 3x as usual.

It is ok to 2.5x if the blinds do not defend well, as long as you never make the betsize depend on holdings.
 
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Sat Nov 09, 2013, 10:58 AM
(#3)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
When stacks are deep then never min raise from button. Min raising just encourages callers.

When stacks get very shallow ie. when everyone is 10BBs-25BBs then min raising can be very effective especially on a very weak table. I generally mix it up, I'll shove, normal raise and min raise when we're at this stage. I think it makes me pretty tricky to read because I'll do all 3 whether I've a monster or not.

If you've been raising the same throughout, try sticking in a few min raises - both strong and weak and see how you fair.


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Sat Nov 09, 2013, 11:10 AM
(#4)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Minraising the button is better in nearly all scenarios. It makes 4betting more effective and allows us to play more pots in position (i actually do want people calling OOP with marginal holdings beetl).

The only exception I make is with a value hand and a fish in the blinds that will call regardless of bet sizing.
 
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Sat Nov 09, 2013, 11:31 AM
(#5)
TweedleBeetl's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
(i actually do want people calling OOP with marginal holdings beetl).
You might want them to call, but you do not want to give them a good price to call.
Otherwise you must depend on implied odds to profit.
 
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Sat Nov 09, 2013, 11:48 AM
(#6)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedleBeetl View Post
You might want them to call, but you do not want to give them a good price to call.
Otherwise you must depend on implied odds to profit.
You want to charge them enough to make them squirm actually. If you charge too much they fold, if not enough then they instant call. The norm of 3x usually works but in the very early stages there's nothing wrong with 4x.

I used to hate min raising but it does have it's uses. As I said above min raising when the blinds are high is a great move. Think if you can steal 3 hands by min raising and then folding the 4th time and your stack will grow pretty quick. The key is to keep players guessing, min raise with both monsters and weaker but also shove with both types as well. If you min raise every hand then opponents won't give you respect and you will become predictable.


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Sat Nov 09, 2013, 12:30 PM
(#7)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
In cash games the only time I min-raise is UTG. That will be my standard UTG raise regardless.

Usually in other positions I want to raise a bit bigger - even if its only 2.2 or 2.25. I'm happy to raise bigger to 3x or 3.5x if that is what I have been using as a standard raise at the table when I open.

The standard open raise for me at a cash table (apart from UTG) will usually be one of 2.. 2.5x or 3x. Most often 3x.

Which will depend on the table dynamic and the opponents before I make my first open raise - once I have established that with my first open raise I stick to it at that table.

So from the button I almost never min-raise.

If my button raise is my standard raise it does the work.

But I'm mainly a tourney player - so just my thoughts.

Ed


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Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Sat Nov 09, 2013 at 12:35 PM..
 
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Sat Nov 09, 2013, 12:44 PM
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spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I agree with Ovalman's posts.

In cash, I never min-raise from any position. Because you're always deep-stacked, you're giving good odds for players to call with hands that can stack you off very easily.

In tournaments however it is a different story. Because the stacks are typically shallow with high blinds, min-raising is very effective as players often can't afford to give up one or two BB in order to try and catch a dream flop, so they will often fold. When they shove on you and you have to fold, you have invested less in the pot than if you made it say 3x.

The pros often raise somewhere between 2-2., the higher raise gives even less incentive to call with marginal holdings.
 
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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:57 AM
(#9)
mytton's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 181
In microstakes Zoom I tried reducing my button raises to and found I was getting 3bet significantly more (I checked this out in HM2 and it was true). At least some players were seeing the minraise itself as a sign of weakness and counterattacking. Rather than get involved in escalating 3bet 4bet 5bet wars, I readjusted my bet sizing. I eventually settled on 2.5x raises from button and sb, 3x elsewhere.

In tournaments all my non all-in raises are minraises after the 3rd or 4th blind level.
 
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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:59 AM
(#10)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytton View Post
In microstakes Zoom I tried reducing my button raises to and found I was getting 3bet significantly more (I checked this out in HM2 and it was true). At least some players were seeing the minraise itself as a sign of weakness and counterattacking. Rather than get involved in escalating 3bet 4bet 5bet wars, I readjusted my bet sizing. I eventually settled on 2.5x raises from button and sb, 3x elsewhere.

In tournaments all my non all-in raises are minraises after the 3rd or 4th blind level.
Target those players that were attacking your min raises and 4 bet them more when stronger. I know you shouldn't make your bet sizing according to hand strength but this is one opportunity where you can exploit their "exploit" on you.


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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:35 AM
(#11)
Taunto_88's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytton View Post
In microstakes Zoom I tried reducing my button raises to and found I was getting 3bet significantly more (I checked this out in HM2 and it was true). At least some players were seeing the minraise itself as a sign of weakness and counterattacking. Rather than get involved in escalating 3bet 4bet 5bet wars, I readjusted my bet sizing. I eventually settled on 2.5x raises from button and sb, 3x elsewhere.

In tournaments all my non all-in raises are minraises after the 3rd or 4th blind level.

This is where I use my HUD alot. Looking at there Fold to steal attempts, 3bet% and Cbet% is a good indication of there tendencies. But Remeber to Look at there 3bet% by Position. if they are constantly 3 betting from the Blinds, then yes stick in that 4 bet to shut them up.

I have tried myself mixing up my bet sizing on the button and im finding 3x is still working best, for micro stakes that is anyway. Might switch to 2.5x or 2. when i move up in stakes. Only time will tell tho.
 
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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:24 AM
(#12)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Just my 2 cents,

In cash games or in any games for the matter
I always always always raise 3x in any position
Why lose out on value if you've got a good hand or you're bluffing?

Min raises are for wimps.......LOL
 
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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:48 AM
(#13)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Like most solid players, I vary my betsizes both pre-flop and post-flop depending on a number of different factors. Minraising, just like overbetting, is just one tool in my arsenal. It has a useful purpose in many spots.

If we're just talking pre-flop on the button, then I'll sometimes minraise to get a cheap price on my steals, while also keeping the pot small when I have a marginal hand. Minraises are particularly good for achieving a higher stack to pot ratio that suits the (usually speculative) hand I'm playing in that spot.

While there's nothing wrong with sticking rigidly to a standard 3bb open (it helps to disguise the strength of your hand, for a start), I think there's a fair bit of scope for deviating from "standard" bet sizes. I wrote more about this subject on this blog.

Minraises post-flop, however, are nearly always a mistake in my opinion, although some people seem to have success with them.


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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:51 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
Just my 2 cents,

In cash games or in any games for the matter
I always always always raise 3x in any position
Why lose out on value if you've got a good hand or you're bluffing?

Min raises are for wimps.......LOL
I'm with Trap.. the only time I'd min-raise.. is a mis-click.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:57 AM
(#15)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I'm with Trap.. the only time I'd min-raise.. is a mis-click.

John (JWK24)
There is not a distinction between cash and STT/MTT play in these responses. I only speak for STT/MTT play in my case. I do feel however if you've min raised for a bit as Mytton has done in cash then keep min raising but only with premiums as it's an exploit of an exploit.


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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:08 PM
(#16)
JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
There is not a distinction between cash and STT/MTT play in these responses. I only speak for STT/MTT play in my case. I do feel however if you've min raised for a bit as Mytton has done in cash then keep min raising but only with premiums as it's an exploit of an exploit.
The lowest I ever raise in a tourney is to 2.2X and that is only if the blinds are over 1k/2k. The ONLY min-raise that I will ever do is a mis-click!

John (JWK24)

P.S. Please put me in the blinds when someone min's.. I'll take advantage of the odds and use it against them every single time.


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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:09 PM
(#17)
TweedleBeetl's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post

If we're just talking pre-flop on the button, then I'll sometimes minraise to get a cheap price on my steals, while also keeping the pot small when I have a marginal hand. Minraises are particularly good for achieving a higher stack to pot ratio that suits the (usually speculative) hand I'm playing in that spot.
So you only minraise on button when you are stealing and with marginal hands? good to know.
Or does the "sometimes" refer to other factors that hand strength? like on mondays or against particular villains?

Could be a nice way to confuse villains by varying betsize according to a roll of dice each hand.
 
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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:35 PM
(#18)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
The lowest I ever raise in a tourney is to 2.2X and that is only if the blinds are over 1k/2k. The ONLY min-raise that I will ever do is a mis-click!

John (JWK24)

P.S. Please put me in the blinds when someone min's.. I'll take advantage of the odds and use it against them every single time.
I min raise - min raise + the ante, 2.2 times, 3 times, pot bet, shove all in and in general keep you guessing. It's a tool in my arsenal that works. If I think it would work against you then I'll use it.

Check your tracking software and see how you done against a min raise?

It's situational and not standard but a min raise works.


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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:59 PM
(#19)
Taunto_88's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 57
Just Found a Old blog Posted by geoVARTA that really explains this whole concept very well. Really wish i found this blog before i made this post lol. Kinda cool to see all the different ideas and logic behind everyones opinion. didnt expect this topic to Ensue like it did. Anyway this Blog really breaks down the math concept and gave me a different way of looking at stealing and opening from Co/Button.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/blo...cessful-steals
 

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