Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

5NL Zoom (6 max) - TT [BB] in 3bet pot Vs Btn Steal

Old
Default
5NL Zoom (6 max) - TT [BB] in 3bet pot Vs Btn Steal - Sat Nov 09, 2013, 09:14 PM
(#1)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar


Background:

Hero: 18/12/6 (187 hands) >200bb deep
Villain: 14/13/10 (96 hands) >160bb deep

Notes on Villain: 3bet in blinds vs steals with KQo

Pre-flop:

Decided to 3bet with p/f Vs BTN Steal (Villain called 3bet).

Flop:

Flop wasn't too bad with only 1 o/card, but there was s/d & f/d possibilities, so opted to make a healthy cbet $0.65. (Villain called).

Turn:

Turn card paired the board so was less concerned with the o/card, but now faced club & diamond draws [... as well as the prospect of boats if Villain had 44; 88]. I decided to bet again OTT to protect against draws... & was b/folding if Villain raised. (Villain called).

River:

We fill up OTR, so opted to bet $3.15. Villain snap shoved. Hero???

My thoughts:

Only hands that beat us OTR incl: JJ & JT [3 combos] & we're beating 44, 88 & all other Jx combos, TP hands / missed draws?

Questions:

1. Do you agree with the the way I played the hand / bet sizing?
2. Do we call 'all in' OTR?

Welcome your thoughts / comments.

Tony
 
Old
Default
Sat Nov 09, 2013, 10:11 PM
(#2)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Hand is played fine.

Snap call river. Is this even a question?
 
Old
Default
Sat Nov 09, 2013, 10:23 PM
(#3)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi Tony,

I've played a lot of 6-max micros always the caller and then the loser in these spots. So don't take my advice and never fold a boat. More often than not your are beat but why?

I like everything about your play in this hand. Just one small thing your 3-bet could be a bit bigger maybe 55c-60c as a positional sizing oop. Your c-bets flop and turn seem good to me.

So the problem comes on the river we fill up. Sick, so many times trips and quads love their positional advantage here[1]. It is so under represented and as you say JJ (not so much Jx) is well within a flat 3-bet call on the button. Perhaps QJs+, though I have discounted JTo on the river, but hey it's the micros.

So relative hand strength a boat is good, is there an unwritten rule no one folds a boat? I've been beaten up by quads so many times and it's only one combo. What are the chances of that happening?


Note:
[1] On the turn my thinking is you get shoved on by a Jack (micros), but with 2 of them never.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Sat Nov 09, 2013 at 10:47 PM.. Reason: Note 1
 
Old
Default
Sun Nov 10, 2013, 08:06 AM
(#4)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey Prodigy - another hand that reminds me so much of something I'm struggling with right now


Couldn't wait to find out what the villain hand, and peeked at the ending, but it was what I thought it was So my discussion kind of gives away the ending for anyone who wanted to wait before hearing what it is



Was thinking that with the line you took, maybe the villain wouldn't have put you on TT, and might have thought he was likely good with 88?

Except does someone with a vpip of 14 even have 88 in his 3-bet calling range? It kind of seems like the only hand someone that tight would call with, that they'd shove the river with, would be JJ?

And then if his AF is 10, maybe it's a red flag that he was so passive throughout the hand?

Also, those insta-shoves on the river are usually the nuts, because wouldn't someone with 88 at least pause to give a second or two of thought to JT if your bet size became larger - like if your bet size became larger, and that made him *more* excited to get the money in the middle ... that's usually a bit worrisome.


Something I struggle with is like ... if it seems like there's only one hand the villain likely has, then should we even be thinking about combinations and the fact that TT was the 3rd nuts? Because it kind of seems like by 25nl we need to be able to fold in spots like this with hands like TT? At 5nl, maybe not so much, but even by 10nl on weeknights ... peoples' ranges get so tight.


Am still calling in spots like this, which is why I avoid playing deep-stacked still
 
Old
Default
Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:16 AM
(#5)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Because it kind of seems like by 25nl we need to be able to fold in spots like this with hands like TT?
Nope. With that stack depth there's almost no limit that you'd be folding TT there.

Last edited by birdayy; Sun Nov 10, 2013 at 10:57 AM..
 
Old
Default
Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:49 AM
(#6)
Taunto_88's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 57
Hello Prodigy237

Did you have Fold to 3 bet% stats on villain? what about Fold flop Cbet and fold turn cbet stats? JT seems to weak for him to be calling giving the stats u have posted. QJs possibly. AJ and possibly 88 like stated above. I believe if they had 88 they are raising or shoving on the turn.

Villain is going to have alot of Jx, suited connectors, and broad way cards in this spot.

For the river. I'am calling no matter what. if he turns over JT or JJ so be it. But its such a small percentage of his range and chance. If you are hesitant close your eyes and click call lol. Only other thing i can think of is your Flop Cbet could be a lil bit smaller but your sizing wasnt horrible. Its just me because i expect villain to have alot of Jx hands in this spot.

Other than that i would say u played well and keep up the work.
 
Old
Default
Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:55 AM
(#7)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Hi All,

Thanks for all your comments... In response to some of the points raised:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Couldn't wait to find out what the villain hand, and peeked at the ending, but it was what I thought it was So my discussion kind of gives away the ending for anyone who wanted to wait before hearing what it is
Sam... You know what they say about 'curiosity' LOL

Quote:
Was thinking that with the line you took, maybe the villain wouldn't have put you on TT, and might have thought he was likely good with 88?

Except does someone with a vpip of 14 even have 88 in his 3-bet calling range? It kind of seems like the only hand someone that tight would call with, that they'd shove the river with, would be JJ?
I think 44, 88 & maybe hands like AJs, QJs, JTs are in Villain's range IP Vs 3bet from the blinds.

Quote:
Also, those insta-shoves on the river are usually the nuts, because wouldn't someone with 88 at least pause to give a second or two of thought to JT if your bet size became larger - like if your bet size became larger, and that made him *more* excited to get the money in the middle ... that's usually a bit worrisome.

Am still calling in spots like this, which is why I avoid playing deep-stacked still
No don't think so as it is unlikely I would 3bet p/f with JT... & I wasn't overly concerned with insta-shove because my hand was also v disguised. Villain could put me on o/pairs QQ+, AJs etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunto_88 View Post
Hello Prodigy237

Did you have Fold to 3 bet% stats on villain? what about Fold flop Cbet and fold turn cbet stats?
Hi Taunto_88... I had limited stats, but F3bet was 100% (2/2) & FCbet was also 100% (1/1) & no stats for FTCbet.

Thanks,

Tony

Last edited by Prodigy237; Sun Nov 10, 2013 at 12:01 PM.. Reason: Added
 
Old
Default
Sun Nov 10, 2013, 06:18 PM
(#8)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
I don't agree with 3betting TT vs a 14/13/10, rather keep his range as wide as possible. Also turn bet what are we getting value from? like the only draws I would think this tight player have, is AKcc,AQcc, KQc maaaybbeee T9dd.
 
Old
Default
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 05:09 AM
(#9)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaRLoS_DZ87 View Post
I don't agree with 3betting TT vs a 14/13/10, rather keep his range as wide as possible. Also turn bet what are we getting value from? like the only draws I would think this tight player have, is AKcc,AQcc, KQc maaaybbeee T9dd.
Hey Carlos,

Villain's AS was 33% & F3Bet was 100% (2/2), so whilst he appeared to be a TAG player he did his fair share of stealing from LP. Do we also not have to bet to protect against hands like AKs, AQs, as there is good chance these hands will be part of his 3bet calling range? By checking OTT do we not risk giving a free card to hit his draws... & as mentioned previously my plan was to b/fold to a raise?

Tony
 
Old
Default
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:25 AM
(#10)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
I never can put opps on just the first nuts. Of course he might have JJ, J8 and JT(less possible because we've got TT , but it's just the same as putting him on JJ), but it would be just so rarely .
I put him on such range, if you disagree with it pls, write.
QQ,88,44,AJs,KJs,QJs,J8s+,AJo
and our hand has got 91% equity. If I add some off suit jacks than our hand equity is 81%. I really can't fold there . and pot is too huge 13usd and we have to call there just 3 USD.
 
Old
Default
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:37 AM
(#11)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigy237 View Post
Hey Carlos,

Villain's AS was 33% & F3Bet was 100% (2/2), so whilst he appeared to be a TAG player he did his fair share of stealing from LP. Do we also not have to bet to protect against hands like AKs, AQs, as there is good chance these hands will be part of his 3bet calling range? By checking OTT do we not risk giving a free card to hit his draws... & as mentioned previously my plan was to b/fold to a raise?

Tony
AKcc,AQcc, KQcc are just 3 combinations, compared to AJ,KJs,JQs,JTs,QQ,JJ,88... just AJ have 8 combinations.
 
Old
Default
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 05:34 PM
(#12)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaRLoS_DZ87 View Post
AKcc,AQcc, KQcc are just 3 combinations, compared to AJ,KJs,JQs,JTs,QQ,JJ,88... just AJ have 8 combinations.
I agree, so do we check OTT with a view to x/calling small bet & x/folding to large bet? If we get to the river... What is our optimal line? Do we check again & risk missing value or do we lead out & b/call shove?

Tony
 
Old
Default
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:32 PM
(#13)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Prodigy, it is kind of personal preference, I am comfortable check-folding here, our hands looks like QQ-AA or 99-TT and light 3bets that we gave up, so don't think he would bet his 99 here. Is possible that he would bet those 3 or 4 combinations of draws, so if you are the kind of player that needs to know he wasn't bluffed then I would check-call, but on river (any other river than a T) I don't think many players at 10nl would shove as a bluff so I would fold.

Also AQcc and hands like that, they have a lot of equity vs our hand, so its not like we are being exploited when we fold there.

This is all IMO I am still waiting to see what the hand analyzers are going to say, interesting hand .
 
Old
Default
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 08:05 AM
(#14)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Tony,

I would sometimes 3bet TT and sometimes call. Leaning more towards calls, but given we are kind of deep I think there might be value in 3betting here because we can get called lighter than if we were 100bbs deep.
On J84ss, I would balance my range by x/c with TT because with AK I'm x/f; this is a kind of board I expect to get called or even raised on against an opponent who is in position though betting is not bad either considering that there would be three overs that we would give a free card to a hand like AQ. But once we are called, I would check the turn. Like Carlos said, by betting we would fold worse hands and get called by better. River is a clear call.
 
Old
Default
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:24 PM
(#15)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Hi George,

On balance, I can see why 'checking' OTT would be preferable & don't mind x/folding, but there is no way I am folding to a shove OTR. Unfortunately, as Sam has already eluded to [above] we were drawing dead OTT as Villain showed .

Tony

Last edited by Prodigy237; Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 12:36 PM..
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com