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10NL Zoom (6 max) - JJ [Btn] Vs 4bet shove [CO]

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10NL Zoom (6 max) - JJ [Btn] Vs 4bet shove [CO] - Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:11 AM
(#1)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar


Background:

Hero: 15/12/4 (396 hands)
Villain: 13/13/0 (8 hands) F3bet 100% (1/1) - No information [... except Villain started hand with <70bb so unlikely a reg]

This is from my recent 10NL shot & ironically, was the first hand after I'd doubled up & bought back in for 100bb.

Questions:

Nice easy one... Should we 3bet/fold or call 4bet shove Vs Unknown Villain?

Welcome your thoughts / comments?

Tony

Last edited by Prodigy237; Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 08:15 AM..
 
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Mon Nov 11, 2013, 08:14 AM
(#2)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
I would fold against unknown.
 
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Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:35 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,506
(Head Trainer)
Hi Prodigy,

Quote:
Questions:

Nice easy one... Should we 3bet/fold or call 4bet shove Vs Unknown Villain?
None of the above?

Don't rule out flat calling as an option, it may be our best one. The villain has only played 1 of 8 hands thus far, opening for a raise and folding to a 3B. There's no indication he's going to continue vs. our 3B light, so it's reasonable to assume we may fold out the bottom of his opening range when we 3-bet him here. Flatting keeps his entire opening range in, and we would like to play in position vs. hands we dominate like ATs and 88. Also we have a short stacker in the small blind, a flat may invite him to come along with dominated hands as well, or even 3b Squeeze hands like middle pairs or ATs... hands which he may well fold facing our 3B. And in respect to the opener's range, I think the fact that you're unclear how to proceed facing the 4B is good evidence that flat calling deserves strong consideration.

As played, I would not fold. I mean I would tend to flat, or plan to 3b/get it in, and never 3b/fold with JJ here. The guy only starts with 70bbs. He's opening for a larger than normal sizing of 4x. You're 3-betting for a bit larger than normal sizing as well at 3.25x his opening size. There's enough out there that we should be getting it in to his shove, and if we think we just won't be profitable doing so because his 4-bet range is too tight, then we shouldn't 3b in the first place... 3b a more polarized range in spots like this, only hands that we are comfortable stacking off preflop (whatever that may be for you, be it KK+ or QQ+ or whatever... should be dependent on what we think villains stack off range is) and hands we are comfortable folding to a 4-bet (resteals with a blocker like A3 for example).


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Mon Nov 11, 2013, 04:23 PM
(#4)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi Prodigy,

None of the above?

Don't rule out flat calling as an option, it may be our best one. The villain has only played 1 of 8 hands thus far, opening for a raise and folding to a 3B. There's no indication he's going to continue vs. our 3B light, so it's reasonable to assume we may fold out the bottom of his opening range when we 3-bet him here.
Flatting keeps his entire opening range in, and we would like to play in position vs. hands we dominate like ATs and 88. Also we have a short stacker in the small blind, a flat may invite him to come along with dominated hands as well, or even 3b Squeeze hands like middle pairs or ATs... hands which he may well fold facing our 3B. And in respect to the opener's range, I think the fact that you're unclear how to proceed facing the 4B is good evidence that flat calling deserves strong consideration.

As played, I would not fold. I mean I would tend to flat, or plan to 3b/get it in, and never 3b/fold with JJ here. The guy only starts with 70bbs. He's opening for a larger than normal sizing of 4x. You're 3-betting for a bit larger than normal sizing as well at 3.25x his opening size. There's enough out there that we should be getting it in to his shove, and if we think we just won't be profitable doing so because his 4-bet range is too tight, then we shouldn't 3b in the first place... 3b a more polarized range in spots like this, only hands that we are comfortable stacking off preflop (whatever that may be for you, be it KK+ or QQ+ or whatever... should be dependent on what we think villains stack off range is) and hands we are comfortable folding to a 4-bet (resteals with a blocker like A3 for example).
Hi Dave,

Thank you for your feedback / comments.

Just to clarify... My plan was to isolate the short stack & 3bet / get it in, so wasn't unclear how to proceed? Unfortunately, Villain was at the top of his range & we didn't improve.

BUT, I am just trying to gauge if this is the optimal line Vs Unknown Villains or as you suggest whether flatting IP would be preferable as it keeps their range as wide as possible? If we opt to flat call & the flop comes A; 8; Q; Villain then cbets... Presume we're calling at least one street & then folding to a second barrel unless we improve?

Furthermore, if blinds squeeze... we call 3bet [IP] & face a similar flop [as above]. Are we calling or folding to a cbet?

Tony

Last edited by Prodigy237; Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 04:31 PM..
 
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Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:23 PM
(#5)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I agree with Langolier here. Against unknown not playing a full stack, I would either 3bet/call or just call in position.

He explains things much better that I possibly could though...
 

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