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The Langolier - right or wrong

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The Langolier - right or wrong - Mon Nov 11, 2013, 04:13 PM
(#1)
mikekbkl's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 16
Hi all

A couple of days ago i was viewing a live session by The Langolier, i enjoy his sessions and find him very informative.

In the session he mentioned that though it was good to make the money after the bubble if your short stacked (8/10)BB you need to widen your shoving range as playing for say 3/4 hours and min cashing (is it worth it). I would like to point out here that the min cash was the buy in + 6 cents.

I disagree for the following reasons:

1. If your are a recreational player and you min cash whether the buy in is 10 cents or $500 and you make your money back and have enjoyed playing the game - you should be happy.

2.Playing a short stack can improve your game as you really have to think about your position and decision making if you want to keep doubling up.

3. This is factual and can be confirmed, i was playing a tourn 60 players left in six hands i went from chip leader to just an ante, which i was fortunate to win 1bb, i then went on to finish 2nd and won $500, also i have recently played in two live events where i have gone down to 2 and 3bb,and gone on to pick up decent cash finishing 3rd in both tourns.

My point been that sometimes even been short stacked you can still play like a rock a come through smiling.

Obviously you need to get lucky with the right cards, but it does happen.

My apologies to The langolier if i misunderstood what he was saying.
 
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Mon Nov 11, 2013, 05:06 PM
(#2)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
Dave is not wrong on that one.
It's arguable though and it's your choice to follow his tip or not, but from what I understood he said that you can't win enough tournaments if you fold your way to the money bubble.
Poker is all about making the most profitable play, which makes shoving wider the best decision, especially when there are more chips in the pot already.
In my opinion if your goal is to get your money back, play a fast paced heads up sit n' go and not a tournament.
 
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not really my point - Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:02 PM
(#3)
mikekbkl's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 16
Not really my point, i am saying that you can still take a conservative position on your hand range and still run deep
 
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Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:52 PM
(#4)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
You can also spend £2 every week and buy a lottery ticket and win £1 million +.

Does this make buying a lottery ticket the best way of investing your money? Of course not.

Langolier's videos are very sage advice for maximising your ROI in tournaments. It is better to sacrifice some min-cashes to give yourself a better chance of finishing in the higher places where the big money lives.
 
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Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:09 PM
(#5)
shirshot's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 665
The Langolier's advise is based on wanting to be a profitable player. Being a recreational player may be a non-profitable player but still having fun.

Playing short stacked can improve your skills but so can being average and deep stacked.

Yes you can win a tourney when your down to an ante. "Chip and a Chair" but its alot easier if you have a monster stack!


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Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:44 PM
(#6)
Tyirl's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekbkl View Post
3. This is factual and can be confirmed, i was playing a tourn 60 players left in six hands i went from chip leader to just an ante, which i was fortunate to win 1bb, i then went on to finish 2nd and won $500, also i have recently played in two live events where i have gone down to 2 and 3bb,and gone on to pick up decent cash finishing 3rd in both tourns.

When you were down to just one big blind in chips did you wait until you were dealt a premium hand, or did you widen your range? Once you get down to one to three big blinds left in your stack like you mention then it becomes much harder to make a come back, but nobody is saying that it's impossible.

I believe the point is to try to maximize your chances to run deep instead of just making it to the min-cash and busting out. The reason to try to maximize your chances to run deep instead of min-cash is because the amount of profit is so much larger. For instance I am looking at the lobby of a $4.50 buy in 180 man sit&go tourney. The min-cash for that is 19th to 27th place and pays $4.79 for $0.29 profit. If someone makes it to 9th place it pays $11.07 for $6.57 profit. 5th place is $42.80 for $38.30 profit, and 1st is $221.49 for $216.99 profit. You would have to min-cash more than 22 times to make the same profit as a 9th place finish, more than 132 times to make the same profit as a 5th place finish, and more than 748 times to make the same profit as a 1st place finish. This is just in a small sit&go, if it was a larger MTT then the differences between min-cash and final table would be even more pronounced.
 
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Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:28 PM
(#7)
taxi128's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by shirshot View Post
The Langolier's advise is based on wanting to be a profitable player. Being a recreational player may be a non-profitable player but still having fun.

Playing short stacked can improve your skills but so can being average and deep stacked.

Yes you can win a tourney when your down to an ante. "Chip and a Chair" but its alot easier if you have a monster stack!

shirshots first line- (I don't know how to separate them )answers everything on here. The Langoliers sessions are mainly for those who are in this to make money although us recreational players can learn a few things too.


Triple Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:30 AM
(#8)
666bonez187's Avatar
Since: Oct 2012
Posts: 745
i always attack the bubble stage, every1 is so tight, and i try to play for the win not the min, no matter how many bb i have, it is a good part of the tournament to pick up easy chips if u are smart enough
 
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Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:28 AM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Hi mike,

Lots of good replies already, they are spot on.

Basically what I was saying was, if you're on the bubble and have a good spot to accumulate chips, it is usually worth the risk to try and do so. Widening your shoving range to attack players who are folding too tightly trying to make a min-cash, to steal the blinds and antes, can create a some of those good spots. And if you do get called, while risking bubbling, if you win the hand you acquire a stack that helps you to make a much deeper run than just limping across the pay line for a min-cash with no chips.

It's all about profitability, and maximizing your EV (expected value) in the tournament. Which is why I also said if you were so short (I think the example I used was 1 big blind) that you had no fold equity, and getting all in and winning doesn't increase your chances to run deeper anyway, then if you can fold across the bubble safely it's prudent to do that and lock up the min-cash first, then stick your last 1 bb in and try to get lucky once the money is secured. That's better EV wise than risking bubbling for no money when the alternative is to chip up to a whopping 3.5bb stack that still needs to get very lucky to climb above the min-cash pay spots.

Quote:
1. If your are a recreational player and you min cash whether the buy in is 10 cents or $500 and you make your money back and have enjoyed playing the game - you should be happy.
If a recreational player plays poker tournaments for fun, and min-cashing makes them happy while bubbling the event will ruin their weekend, then sure, folding through the bubble makes sense for them. Maximizing their EV in the event maybe isn't worth ruining their weekend for several extra weekends during the course of a year. Then again, there really isn't much more fun in poker than shipping a tournament and the fat score that comes with it... they will also get less of these feelings if they are sacrificing good chip up opportunities too often.

Quote:
2.Playing a short stack can improve your game as you really have to think about your position and decision making if you want to keep doubling up.
I agree! Playing a solid short stack strategy is an essential part of winning MTT play. Luckily we get a lot of practice at it, since we find either ourselves or our opponents (or both) short in most every tourney we play. It's not an excuse to fold all hands til the bubble bursts.

Quote:
3. This is factual and can be confirmed, i was playing a tourn 60 players left in six hands i went from chip leader to just an ante, which i was fortunate to win 1bb, i then went on to finish 2nd and won $500, also i have recently played in two live events where i have gone down to 2 and 3bb,and gone on to pick up decent cash finishing 3rd in both tourns.

My point been that sometimes even been short stacked you can still play like a rock a come through smiling.

Obviously you need to get lucky with the right cards, but it does happen.
Absolutely, I never said it was impossible. I have told the story in my class of a $265 mega satellite I played last year to a WSOP Circuit main event. The satty had about 100 people and was awarding 12 seats to the main event. During the first ante level, 2 players at my table hand an all in confrontation, top set vs. a big draw. The draw hit the river. After counting down the stacks, the guy that had his set cracked covered the other by a single green (25) chip. So on the next hand, with blinds at 100/200/25, he was all in under the gun for just the ante. He won that hand, and was all in again in the big blind next hand... and won that one. Then he went all in on the small blind and won that hand. And he came back to win one of those 12 seats after being down to a single green chip with 75 or so players left... a true real life "chip and a chair" story that I got to witness first hand!

I myself once came back to finish 3rd in a 1000+ player field online after being crippled down to 175 at 50-100. It can happen. It does happen. It's extremely unlikely and you have to get super lucky. Having a totally crippled stack is not a formula for winning poker tournaments. Although it doesn't make the feat impossible, it does significantly rarefy it.


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Thanks to the Langolier - Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:38 PM
(#10)
mikekbkl's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 16
Thanks for your input, i posted the original thread because the majority of poker players are recreational players,those that are members of PSO on the whole want to learn and improve there game and hope to win a tournament or two, some will go on to be great poker players and who knows there could be some world champions out there. BUT - the majority will be regular losers (without losers there is no winnings) so all i was saying is that sometimes it just pays to sit back and just enjoy the game.
 

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