Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

5NL Zoom (6 max) - QQ Vs UTG R in 3bet pot on M/T board

Old
Default
5NL Zoom (6 max) - QQ Vs UTG R in 3bet pot on M/T board - Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:49 AM
(#1)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar


Background:

My stats: VPIP 16; PFR 11; 3bet 4 (1K hands)
Villain: No stats or information.

Pre-flop:

Villain raises from UTG [+ 1 caller]. Hero 3bets with . Villain [UTG] calls. (BB / caller folds)

Post-Flop:

My plan was to x/c OTF due to monotone board [... rather than cbet as didn't think we could continue Vs raise] & consider x/f OTT unless we improved. We then hit top set OTT & Villain bets 2/3 pot.

My thoughts:

I thought Villain's range would be fairly narrow given UTG raise / flat call 3bet, so my initial thoughts were JJ+ AJs+ AQo+ & decided we could probably discount AA, KK as would expect Villain to 4bet p/f [... & are now ahead of these hands anyway].

Villain looked v strong & whilst I considered that we could be behind to ; (poss ) [3 combos] that may call 3bet p/f, there are also a lot more x combos that could take a similar line, so didn't feel we could fold top set here & with the money already invested it seemed a fairly straight forward decision to shove OTT?

Questions:

1. Do you agree with the way I played the hand / my analysis?
2. Am I missing something?
3. Do we ever find a fold in this spot?

Welcome your thoughts / comments.

Tony

Last edited by Prodigy237; Mon Nov 18, 2013 at 06:52 AM.. Reason: Added
 
Old
Default
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 10:14 AM
(#2)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
You should be bet/bet/shoving.
 
Old
Default
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 10:23 AM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi Prodigy,

I don't agree with this line as optimal. I think we should be betting for value on the flop, and my plan will be to bet/get it in vs. a raise.

Since we have no info or reads I'm not inclined to think he's super strong. One thing I am generally inclined to think readless is there's a bit less chance he's got AA or KK since he didn't' 4-bet us preflop. Some players also 4-bet AKs. So while we can't rule any of these hands out completely, I do feel like we have the best hand far more often than not here. If we check, we may miss value and give free cards to hands like AKo, Ax, Kx, pocket pairs if they check behind us. Plus, if we bet, hands like TT and JJ might feel like they should raise to "protect their hand", thus my plan to bet/get it in... we'd love to get TT or JJ in the middle right on the flop before a scare card kills our action. A player may also semi-bluff with the Ad, so if we get that in on the draw that's fine too.

And no, I'm not folding at any point in this hand.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 07:59 AM
(#4)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
What does MT stands for?
 
Old
Default
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 08:58 AM
(#5)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
What does MT stands for?
Monotone. One colour.
 
Old
Default
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:36 AM
(#6)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi Prodigy,

I don't agree with this line as optimal. I think we should be betting for value on the flop, and my plan will be to bet/get it in vs. a raise.

Since we have no info or reads I'm not inclined to think he's super strong. One thing I am generally inclined to think readless is there's a bit less chance he's got AA or KK since he didn't' 4-bet us preflop. Some players also 4-bet AKs. So while we can't rule any of these hands out completely, I do feel like we have the best hand far more often than not here. If we check, we may miss value and give free cards to hands like AKo, Ax, Kx, pocket pairs if they check behind us. Plus, if we bet, hands like TT and JJ might feel like they should raise to "protect their hand", thus my plan to bet/get it in... we'd love to get TT or JJ in the middle right on the flop before a scare card kills our action. A player may also semi-bluff with the Ad, so if we get that in on the draw that's fine too.

And no, I'm not folding at any point in this hand.
Hi Dave,

Not my best I agree... & I do take on board your comments, but is there an argument that by checking we keep Villain's range as wide as possible i.e. o/cards (non-diamond) or mid pps & poss give Villain an opportunity to bluff / semi bluff at the pot? If we cbet OTF, we risk folding out virtually all of their worse hands & only get called / shoved on by the top of their range?

As you suggest... there are some that will slow play or play their big hands more passively & given the Villain raised UTG / called 3bet we cannot discount AA, KK, AKs completely. In fact, it happened earlier in the session, I 3bet with KK Vs Villain [different] who flatted IP & we got it 'all in' OTF (d/board) only for Villain to show AA.

Ironically, I think on this occasion x/calling OTF worked to my advantage [... & not just because we then hit top set OTT], because somewhat surprisingly Villain showed so not sure he would have continued in the hand without connecting with what ended up being the case .

Welcome your comments / feedback.

Tony

Last edited by Prodigy237; Tue Nov 19, 2013 at 09:57 AM.. Reason: Added
 
Old
Default
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 10:29 AM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
I think we are leaving too much value on the table not betting. Keeping a villains range as wide as possible is a very relevant idea when our actual hand strength is somewhere in the middle of that range... where aggressive actions will tend to fold the bottom of their range (the parts we're crushing) and get continued action from the top of their range (the parts crushing us). Think about it like this... let's say you actually held AdKd here, so you flopped the nut flush. Would you check to keep his range as wide as possible? No, you'd miss value from so many worse hands. That doesn't mean checking the nuts isn't the best line all the time, we might check if the villain is very aggressive in position, or a known bluff monkey, to induce and maximize value. We don't have reads though in this case.

So here in your hand, we don't have the nuts, but we are likely to have the best hand and in terms of his range we are not in the middle of it, we are near the top. There are plenty of worse hands in his range that will give action, and we have some measure of vulnerability to free cards as well.

It worked out given what he had and how the board ran out, but we are playing a range and not a specific hand. If we somehow knew he held specifically JcTc for instance the correct play then becomes to check to him (all 3 streets if necessary) since he's drawing near dead and can't call a bet, so we give him a chance to make a pair (and if not, to bluff the river).


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 12:48 PM
(#8)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Hi Dave,

All things considered... If I had been the PFR + 1 caller my default play would be to cbet OTF on similar board texture... so suppose there's my answer.

Only difference here is that in 3bet pot we expect Villain to be calling with a much narrower range, which could include AA, KK [10-20% of the time] & AKs [40-50% of the time], however if faced with a shove OTF... not sure I am ever folding with .

Thanks again.

Tony
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com