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Proposal: Live Training for Beginners

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Proposal: Live Training for Beginners - Thu Nov 21, 2013, 03:56 PM
(#1)
DrEllenCait's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 125
BronzeStar
Greetings.

I offer this as a suggestion. We have 3 live trainings which

are offered over & over on PSO. I remember going through the

Basic Course material but Live Trainings didn't really reflect

what I was reading. I wish we had a full live training program

for beginners as when I did go to regular Live Trainings I was

LOST by assumptions that I knew this or that. I wish we

enough trainers for Dave (TheLangolier) to elicit responses

from members: What did you think you needed in Live

Trainings when you started as a novice? I wish we had had

enough trainers to have a full live training program for

novices. I know I would be a far better player today had I

received more Live Trainings, free tutoring (partnership with

more advanced member of PSO) as during the first 3 months I was

lost and thankfully, Lane Anderson (85FastLane) took me under

his wings.

Thanks for listening folks And know that almost ALL studies

in the field of learning show that investing in beginners--

whether pre-schoolers or in the area of sports--pay off as the

foundation is firmer and the growth more rapid.

Feedback appreciated
.
 
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Thu Nov 21, 2013, 04:20 PM
(#2)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
The had beginners classes at PSO before but they were stopped, I assume, because attendance was so low.
 
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More Publicity/Public Relations - Thu Nov 21, 2013, 08:53 PM
(#3)
DrEllenCait's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 125
BronzeStar
Hi

I am not suggesting that hey didn't do a good job, but there is always room to think outside the box. In

tandem with Basic Course Material--which could be reviewed as I, as an intermediate, have yet to see 2+2

shown working in our trainings by way of example; a cash incentive--something almost all beginners need--

might help; contests geared to beginners; 'buddy system' for beginners, tour of PSO and PS (thus a

2 hour commitment from experienced PSO members) and that is just one person jamming.

Ellen

History need not repeat itself if we don't repeat history.
 
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Fri Nov 22, 2013, 02:56 AM
(#4)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
I wish there was more Live Trainings discussing more advanced concepts.
 
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Fri Nov 22, 2013, 03:39 AM
(#5)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,032
(Community Coordinator)
Hi Ellen,

Once again thanks for an excellent suggestion.

For absolute beginners we have the very popular Bankroll Builder promotion but some terms and conditions do apply.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...nkroll-builder

As always we recommend that you send good suggestions like this to ideas@mypokerschoolonline.com We can't guarantee that your ideas will be implemented but we can guarantee that they will be read and considered.

Cheers,
Raiser


Moderator

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Fri Nov 22, 2013, 01:29 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
One problem with this idea is that there is a wide range of skill levels among PSO members. Some people go to training before they've completed the basic courses, while others are already beating 50NL. I don't think PSO has the resources/budget to tailor training towards each and every skill level, but it does a good job of providing tuition on the fundamentals and intermediate concepts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrEllenCait View Post
What did you think you needed in Live Trainings when you started as a novice?
When I was a total newbie, I'd often resort to Google if I heard some terms I was unfamilar with, but that was before PSO expanded its resources. (The "basic course" was precisely that - basic - but now there are hundreds of videos in the archive, and things like the Poker Bites clips, which are awesome for quickly learning concepts.)

I think all the trainers are very good at explaining concepts if you ask them during the lesson, provided the chatbox isn't too busy, so they actually see your question. If you don't get an answer, you can try posting in their training feedback threads. e.g. Dave's one is here. For terms you're unfamiliar with, you can try looking in the Glossary.
If you're still unsure about some concepts, then the Beginners Questions forum is an ideal place to ask.

For me, the natural thing to do after learning the basics and playing a bit was to post hands for analysis in the HA forums. e.g. If I kept finding myself with tough turn or river decisions, then I'd find an example hand in my database and post it in the cashgame HA forum, in order to ask for advice. Talking about hands with other players is the main way I improved my play, so I'd recommend doing that.

Another thing you can do is use your tracker to find leaks. If the leakfinder in PT4 is showing you have some specific issues, then you can ask for advice on how to fix them.

Good luck!


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Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:15 PM
(#7)
Tagging's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
.
. If the leakfinder in PT4 is showing you have some specific issues, then you can ask for advice on how to fix them.
Would a screen shot be enough to show what areas are problem and discussion about it be enough


Keep up the good work trainers


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Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:19 PM
(#8)
mr mendes 20's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 364
Good point Ellen. I think a good idea would be training's specially made to point out to common leaks beginner players usually have. Something like " stop being a fish and start playing winning poker" because the mistakes beginners make are pretty much the same:
- Think that you know the game already and instead of taking the humble attitude of learning the game and getting better, just sit there and try to 'make hands' by seeing too many flops;
- Play your cards regardless of what cards the opponents might hold, not think of range at all;
- Completely ignore position;
- Go into the flop without a plan, just hoping to hit top pair, which cause beginners to call pf and fold to c-bets very often;
- Play any suited cards;
- Play passively;
- Play overly aggressively;
- Slow-play and miss value;
- Over-bet and miss value;
- Play your good hands passively and your bad hands aggressively;
- Call pf raises oop to place a donkbet, folding to a reraise (typical east european?);
- Overplay top pair and even mid and bottom pair;
- Not consider stack sizes;
- Bluff when it's obvious the opponent will not fold (callstation, or with an obvious strong holding)

I am sure the trainers here at PSO can make this list much bigger. I am aware that strategy can't be generalized, it's specific to the opponent type, stakes, structure of the games available, but some mistakes seem pretty common. The problem is most players don't think of themselves as beginners or fish, many people start thinking they are the Kings of Poker already, with crown and everything.


Time Vault Champion 2013
 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 04:21 PM
(#9)
Horanda's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 22
A clear issue here is that most rank beginners come to the tables expecting to get rich quick, rather than to learn. It is my opinion that when a player begins to realise that (s)he may not know everything there is to know about poker (s)he can be classed as an intermediate player. I started playing poker for money with friends over 40 years ago. I joined Pokerstars 7 years ago, made a AUD50 (about USD35 at the time) deposit and started playing a variety of games. I was driven away from NLHE by the uncontrollable shovers, and settled on Omaha H/L as my game of choice. When Badugi was introduced I soon had my first million in play money and built my realmoney BR up to over $150.
Changes at PS meant that decent games were getting harder to find, so I bought into some medium stakes playmoney HE games to see if I could get better play there. I did, so when I decided that it was time to start really learning the game (about 2 months ago) PSO was the obvious choice. I am hardly a beginning poker player, but that gives me an edge: I want to learn.
There may be some younger players out there who will take umbrage at this next point, but it has to be said. If you want to be successful at any online game, you need to be able to read. Read the rules of the game, read the introduction to the training, and read the bloody password in the agenda so you are not spamming chat asking for it. /rant
 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:25 PM
(#10)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tagging View Post
Would a screen shot be enough to show what areas are problem and discussion about it be enough
A screenshot of the leaktracker stats would certainly help. Anything that promotes discussion of the type of things you should be thinking about can't be a bad thing.


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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:48 PM
(#11)
Ron112355's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 478
Everytime I see the title of this thread I think it's another cougar chasin me again, they just won't leave me alone,,,sighhhh


"A weak player may be a nit but a nit is not necessarily a weak player"
 
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Tue Nov 26, 2013, 10:47 AM
(#12)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
I don't think PSO has the resources/budget to tailor training towards each and every skill level.
If for example a trainer on PSO was to offer one on one training, how would he or she go about it and couldn't we have a class where a trainer gets so many subscribers around the same level teaching in a class on some more advanced plays maybe where its students chip in some money each.

I don't know what would be the best way to teach us so i don't know what to ask for but if like i said one of the trainers was to teach one PSO member or who ever with some understanding of the game how would they go about it im sure students of PSO don't mind contributing some of there bankroll if a trainer would like to offer such a class with maybe homework and stuff, where they choose where we start and how we go from there.

Like maybe one week we do pre flop next week we do the flop then the turn and river play, 3 betting IP and OOP play and so on, i know we can find alot of this stuff but if it was just one long lesson from start to finish over x amount of time with some advanced lines later on i think it would be great for the community.
 
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Live Training - Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:32 AM
(#13)
BichonPup's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4
Ellen, interesting idea, but not really practical imo. I started with live training almost two years ago and it has grown considerably since that time. Along with the school's growth the attendance has grown in leaps and bounds. The video archives are flush with information for beginners as well as more advanced players. As you know, private training via skype is available for a fee with some of the trainers. Given that pokerstars offers this training without a fee, I think we should be grateful for what we do get to learn through the classes that are offered at varying times every day. Further to that we requested that we get to play against each other and thus that happened. With the large number of players attending the school there are always going to be issues with those who have no clue what is going on and those who are possibly beyond any given session. But I believe that any session you attend will bring something new to your game. This is a game of incomplete information and learning and improving never stops. The other idea that I would have, and I believe already exists, players are meeting on skype. So setting up skype groups to help each other is another avenue to look at. Look forward to seeing you in class and good luck at the tables.
 
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Fri Nov 29, 2013, 02:56 PM
(#14)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horanda View Post
There may be some younger players out there who will take umbrage at this next point, but it has to be said. If you want to be successful at any online game, you need to be able to read. Read the rules of the game, read the introduction to the training, and read the bloody password in the agenda so you are not spamming chat asking for it. /rant
I had to lol, thanks Horanda. This is true, or more towards the applications to poker, this is a game where attention to detail is relevant to your success. Player observation, bet sizing, stack sizes, who's on tilt, etc etc... members who don't read the class registration page and just come in the room saying what are we playing, that don't read the agenda and ask for the powerplay password in chat, etc... if you're not able to take these small steps in attention to detail, it will be hard to find sustained success at the tables. Definitely something to think about.


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Fri Nov 29, 2013, 03:02 PM
(#15)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr mendes 20 View Post
Good point Ellen. I think a good idea would be training's specially made to point out to common leaks beginner players usually have. Something like " stop being a fish and start playing winning poker" because the mistakes beginners make are pretty much the same:
- Think that you know the game already and instead of taking the humble attitude of learning the game and getting better, just sit there and try to 'make hands' by seeing too many flops;
- Play your cards regardless of what cards the opponents might hold, not think of range at all;
- Completely ignore position;
- Go into the flop without a plan, just hoping to hit top pair, which cause beginners to call pf and fold to c-bets very often;
- Play any suited cards;
- Play passively;
- Play overly aggressively;
- Slow-play and miss value;
- Over-bet and miss value;
- Play your good hands passively and your bad hands aggressively;
- Call pf raises oop to place a donkbet, folding to a reraise (typical east european?);
- Overplay top pair and even mid and bottom pair;
- Not consider stack sizes;
- Bluff when it's obvious the opponent will not fold (callstation, or with an obvious strong holding)

I am sure the trainers here at PSO can make this list much bigger. I am aware that strategy can't be generalized, it's specific to the opponent type, stakes, structure of the games available, but some mistakes seem pretty common. The problem is most players don't think of themselves as beginners or fish, many people start thinking they are the Kings of Poker already, with crown and everything.
This is a good list, but a lot of these things are topics we already cover day in and day out in our current training schedule (necessarily so). But perhaps an entry level class that addresses some of the common pitfalls of newer players would be a good add.


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Fri Nov 29, 2013, 03:41 PM
(#16)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
If for example a trainer on PSO was to offer one on one training, how would he or she go about it and couldn't we have a class where a trainer gets so many subscribers around the same level teaching in a class on some more advanced plays maybe where its students chip in some money each.

I don't know what would be the best way to teach us so i don't know what to ask for but if like i said one of the trainers was to teach one PSO member or who ever with some understanding of the game how would they go about it im sure students of PSO don't mind contributing some of there bankroll if a trainer would like to offer such a class with maybe homework and stuff, where they choose where we start and how we go from there.

Like maybe one week we do pre flop next week we do the flop then the turn and river play, 3 betting IP and OOP play and so on, i know we can find alot of this stuff but if it was just one long lesson from start to finish over x amount of time with some advanced lines later on i think it would be great for the community.
The live trainers can offer private coaching for a fee at their discretion... some do, some don't. What you're proposing is basically a private group, where essentially the group would share the cost of the private coaching... while they wouldn't get 1 on 1 attention the whole time, there would be more of this and it would cost less than a private 1 on 1 coaching fee with multiple group members sharing in the cost.

If there is interest for this sort of group private coaching, I would be willing to look at organizing something.


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Sat Nov 30, 2013, 01:28 PM
(#17)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Exactly Dave though we wouldn't have to focus on any particular players game to start with yet you could just teach us how you see fit as if you were teaching someone from scratch but as a group and once you felt like we were ready to apply what we have learnt then we could send you hands to focus on if were applying what you've taught us correctly.

I would like to look at playing in the blinds, checking back in position (instead of auto cbetting)and 3bet pots mainly but it would be much better to look at everything with homework where we would focus on one thing at a time, i also like the sound of that class you said you could do on line development which you said was a little more advanced and no one seemed to take any interest.

Any how what im getting at is if this was all put together over some sessions if anyone would like to get involved it would be great im sure, even if everyone joins just for the more advanced stuff later on it would be worth it.
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 07:39 AM
(#18)
mytton's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
The live trainers can offer private coaching for a fee at their discretion... some do, some don't. What you're proposing is basically a private group, where essentially the group would share the cost of the private coaching... while they wouldn't get 1 on 1 attention the whole time, there would be more of this and it would cost less than a private 1 on 1 coaching fee with multiple group members sharing in the cost.

If there is interest for this sort of group private coaching, I would be willing to look at organizing something.
I must say this idea does sound interesting. I couldn't justify the expense of private coaching, but I could see myself getting involved in a focus group led by a trainer. Something rather more focussed and personal than the existing PSO live trainings. To really work, I think the group would need to be well matched in terms of existing knowledge level and goals. Perhaps a good starting point would be those interested (myself included - it would be a good end-of-year exercise in any case) to set out where their game is at and what they hope to accomplish in terms of training/knowledge. Then we could see if there was enough common ground to form a group (or multiple groups) for this.
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 09:53 AM
(#19)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
I feel a lot of the trainers have a lot more to give which they simply can't because of the wide range of skills they are supposed to be catering for. Dave for example could probably provide a lot more advnaced conceptual discussion instead of repeatedly explaining a standard cbet pot (i'm not saying this is his fault, but it does get tedious to a regular attender).

Whatever happened to videos like HoRRor did like SCOOP HU Reviews vs really good regs, or the 150vpps+ sessions which are seldom scheduled anymore? Felix used to do some 25nl leakfinder videos, and even that kinda stuff is starting to dry up.

Just some thoughts I have.

FWIW The Coaching the Coaches series was excellent and it would be awesome to get similar content if PS supported it.

Edit: Seems there are 2 150+ vpp trainings this week. yay!

Last edited by birdayy; Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 11:43 AM..
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 11:28 AM
(#20)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Just my thoughts as I've been to plenty of trainings

When you look at the composition of the members attending the classes, most have a hard time beating 2NL or being ITM with a positive ROI.
I like Ellen's idea, classes for beginners.

But unfortunately, everybody wants to be a millionaire. They all want to know how to steal the blinds, but they steal with garbage, they all want to learn to protect their blinds, but again with garbage, Cbetting as become a must, even when missing the flop with garbage and lets not forget the HUD numbers that dictates what you should do because you have no clue on how to play the hand. Those are not the basics, these need to be learned with time, but everybody wants it now, so they can win thousands of dollars.

Having training for 25NL+ or HU SnG's has no benefit for most members here, since they 're having a hard time winning. Personally, I think that every classes and videos should have a Vpp or Star classification (not that it truly reflects how one plays). The weekend players that deposits $50 because he's going to play 50NL as no business learning higher strategies as he's unable to learn the basic BRM and if you can't beat 2NL, why would you want to know more advance play, especially if it's not going to work at 2NL since we all know that it's not the same type of play at higher stakes (as an example and that applies to SnG's and Mtt's)

Here's a suggestion:

Beginner classes: (up to 2 Stars and up to 300 Vpp's)
Cash, 2 and 5NL
SnG's and Mtt's less than $10
The basics with BRM with no HUD

Intermediate classes: (3-4 Stars, 300 to 1000 Vpp's)
Cash, 10 to 25NL
SnG's and Mtt's between $15 and $25
CBetting, Stealing, Bluffing and HUD

The main reason is that, these levels play differently and you can't take advance knowledge to play 2NL

In the classes, I would chat ban all the know it all people (most can't even beat 2NL....LOL), any comments that are irrelevant to the class (especially during promotions).

In conclusion, I think members here need more of the basics and not advance and both should not be mixed in a same class. I learned a lot from the classes and the videos, but when I was learning to play 5NL, I wasn't watching 50NL videos, nor was I watching HU Hyper. Remember baby steps.

Just a suggestion to back Ellen's thoughts
 

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