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2NL 100k+ graph

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2NL 100k+ graph - Fri Nov 22, 2013, 07:25 PM
(#1)
MrFlopes's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 152
Hi guys. After seeing some of your graphs were some of you crush 2NL by 20bb (i beliebe it was Roland GTX) i decided to post my own graph, with a little bit more of hands than we use to see around here:



I'm beating the game for 4bb/100 and find it impossible to reach your kind of win rate. Then i read in posts that is very easy to beat 5NL for 10bb/100. That is very soul crushing to me, because i wanna move up to 5NL but find that i have no business there if i'm not, at least, beating 2NL for 10bbs. What i also find is when people make those clames, the graphs the present have 10k, 20, 30, 40k hands, wich i believe is a very poor sample. Does anyone knows a graph with a bigger sample of these stakes so i can compare?

Also, i'll leave here some of my stats so you guys can give some advice. I'm playing 6-max Zoom, 4 tabbling (i know this drops my win rate, but i wanted to see if i could play 150K this month)





I think i have some serious issues playing from the BB. Hope you can help.

Last edited by MrFlopes; Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 07:30 PM..
 
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Fri Nov 22, 2013, 08:49 PM
(#2)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
I think it's a lot harder to beat 2NL on Stars for more than 10bb/100 than it used to be, but it's still possible. 6-max in particular is somewhat more profitable than full ring, so double-digit winrates should be within reach on 6-max 2NL and 5NL. (I have a graph for my first 98k hands on my blog, but that was all full ring. Over a much smaller sample of 6-max, I ran at about 15bb/100, while Roland did much better).

From a quick look at your stats, positional awareness looks good. You appear to be a solid TAG from the numbers, but a couple of things stick out for me:

1. Your 3-bet rate is very low for 6-max at 2.37%. That would indicate you're never 3-betting light, and are sticking solely with premiums (QQ+/AK). Mixing in some light 3-bets as a defence against steals can add a couple of bb to your winrate, so see if you can find some videos on 3-betting. This "leak" is also indicated in how often you fold to steals. While playing tight in the blinds is good practice, if you play back at villains occasionally, they won't try stealing so often.
2. C-bet flop fruequency is a little low. I'm not sure if they are in the archive yet, but Gareth did some superb sessions dedicated to c-betting effectively. If you could get your c-bet number up above 60%, you'll be harder to read and will show an instant profit post-flop. I'd guess that at the moment, your redline is trending downwards pretty rapidly. Picking good spots to c-bet should help with that, and bost your overall winnings.

If you're finding things tough at the moment, take some time out to watch as many of Gareth and Felix's 6-max sessions (including his "Grind it Up" series) as possible. If they are making plays you don't really understand, then ask about them on the forum.

I hope this starts you off on the road to Crushville. Good luck!


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Fri Nov 22, 2013, 09:45 PM
(#3)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
You can't crush a limit being a nit.
 
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Sat Nov 23, 2013, 01:34 AM
(#4)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
You can't crush a limit being a nit.
In general I agree with you here but 2nl I think you can be a nit.

At 2NL you can have a tight pre flop range and make a tonne of money after the flop because the post flop play is so bad. And at 2NL, they still call river overbet shoves like they are minbets, or maybe that's just my luck, but there is just so much value post flop at 2NL.
 
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Sat Nov 23, 2013, 03:03 AM
(#5)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Hi MrFlopes!

Arty knows much more about stats than I do, but I would like to add a few comments. Most importantly, you are a proven winner a 2NL. That is fantastic, something to be happy about, and proof that you are doing many things right. CongratulationsThe question becomes how can you do some of these things even better... I have asked Gareth what a "good" winrate at 25NL would be and he said anything over 8bb/100 seemed unrealistic in the long run. So, running between 4bb and 8bb is doing well.

As far as my own stats at 2NL 6-max Zoom, yeah I posted some crazy numbers. However, I doubt that would be realistic over 100K. Moreover, I moved down from 25NL full ring when I did my 6-max challenge. So, I should have a significant edge over most players at 2NL.

It looks like the improvements you want to make are small adjustments in order to do more of what you are already doing, mainly knowing when you can turn up the aggression preflop and postflop. I find it helpful to focus on one element at a time. Don't doubt your current game. Just pick one of the topics Arty mentioned and start working on that. As he said, post specific questions or hands and we will do what we can to help out

GL and have fun at the tables!

Roland GTX
 
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Sat Nov 23, 2013, 06:41 AM
(#6)
MrFlopes's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 152
Thanks for the review Arty and for the supoort, Roland. As you said, i'm gonna focus on one element to improve. It seems to Arty that the biggest leak is the 3betting light. I'm gonna work on that hopping that also imrpoves my blind defending/foldo to steal percentage. The C-bet being low, i believe is when the pot gets multi way (wich happens a lot) and im always never betting without a hand. HU i'm always c-beting for the most time. Also, i find myself delay c-beting second pair a lot to get more streets of value or simply checking ace high hands to the river because villains will allow it. That's why i think it's that low.

Also, i remeber regular tables being more easy than these Zoom ones, with a lot less variance. Do you feel this?

Thx a lot, guys.

Last edited by MrFlopes; Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 06:44 AM..
 
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Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:29 AM
(#7)
Fadyen's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,917
Hey MrFlopes,

Seen you quite a lot at the 2NL Zoom tables lately but never really been involved in a hand with you that I remember. From what I have noticed you seem better than the average player there so I think you should be able to get a decent winrate with just a few small adjustments like the things people have mentioned already.

I will agree Zoom can be higher variance than regular tables and takes some getting used to. For my first 20-30k hands at Zoom I was losing but recently my winrate has been pretty big so I know it's possible.

When I get my laptop fixed and have a HUD I'll try and get some stats and stuff of my 2NL Zoom so we can compare. (might not be untill next month though)



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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 04:51 AM
(#8)
MrFlopes's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 152
Fadyen, that would be great. And on that note, let me ask Arty and Roland: if that's not too much trouble, could you guys post some of your stats of 2NL? Really like to take a peek at that.
 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 07:30 AM
(#9)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Here are my all my 2NL 6-Max Zoom hands.



PS: I don't know to what extent it has impacted my stats, but I am guessing that closer to half of these hands were played either when tilting, drinking or watching TV.

GL!

Roland GTX
 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 07:49 AM
(#10)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778


http://i44.tinypic.com/2ppknx3.png

These are Limit cash stats but there are many similarities to NL and I could easily adapt. Bit concerned about defending my BB too much but that an easy leak to fix, I must just remember to stop doing it! My win rate would be so much higher.

Anyone spot anything else I could be doing?


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Last edited by Ovalman; Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:51 AM.. Reason: Changed image so easier to see
 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 07:52 AM
(#11)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Now you got me curious LOL! I have no idea why my ep stats differ so much from the others. Anyway, just to give you an idea how I play, here are the stats for my most profitable hands at 2NL. I see that I apparently 3b QQ+ every chance I get.

 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 07:57 AM
(#12)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Now you got me curious LOL! I have no idea why my ep stats differ so much from the others. Anyway, just to give you an idea how I play, here are the stats for my most profitable hands at 2NL. I see that I apparently 3b QQ+ every chance I get.

Your EP should be a lot lower and your range should be so much tighter. I think those stats are great with a nice progression of playing few EP to playing most on the button. You're using your position very wisely.

I also notice quite a few players that have VPiP and PFR almost identical. I think it's profitable poker but I'm not sure it's the correct way to play. Of course there's no one correct play but I think having a limping range adds to your profits especially at micro stakes.

Anyone any thoughts on this?


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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 08:14 AM
(#13)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I don't particularly like limping all too often and I don't think I even have a range nailed down.

If there are already numerous limpers and I have connectors, suited aces then I may limp but in general I never open limp. I just see very few scenarios where it makes future play in the hand easier.

I am happy to call with a decent range of hands. In position ideally.
 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 08:31 AM
(#14)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
I was just surprized my profit for EP was so low. I am only opening stronger hands, but expected a higher winrate from that pos.

As far as limping. I would never do it at 2NL zoom. The main reason is you are losing value with your stronger hands. Even with speculative hands, I want to build the pot for the few times I flop well. The value I win in those spots outweighs all the negatives for me.

I could see an argument for limping speculative hands from ep. Hands that are not strong enough to call a 3b oop but might be good enough to limp-call a smaller raise. Also these are hands that play well against a string of callers. You see this often enough live, but personally, I would not advise it.

Roland GTX
 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 09:16 AM
(#15)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
The reason I say is that any regs I have hands on or that I've checked on Poker Table Ratings (non Pokerstars) never have a higher win rate than 2 to 4BB/100 when they have both numbers very close together. Maybe because their multi tabling their making mistakes in other ways but I feel having a limping range is part of that reason. I'm 6BB/100 overall but at 2c/4c FL I'm 8 BB/100.

Maybe this only applies to Fixed Limit but I feel having a limping range is +EV while the regs I play against are just a bit too robotic. I play less tables and think about my hands a bit more but my win rate is a bit higher. I can 6BB/100 while 6 tabling but they 2BB/100 while 18 tabling. There is practically no difference except they have a lot more work to do.

Roland, your VPiP, PFR and profit should all increase the closer you get to the button. I wouldn't be overly concerned about a lower win rate from EP. You have more players to fight through and position really means a lot.

My leak is in BB which I will correct but sometimes your dealt a decent drawing hand and then get sucked in. Limit is a bugger like that, you usually have odds to chase but as we know you have to play to the odds.

I hate folding to a SB steal which regularly occurs in Limit. I have position over the SB so I should be winning in this spot which I'm not. I'll have to delve into that stat a bit more.


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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 09:28 AM
(#16)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
@ovalman The only thing I know about limit poker is that I turn into a calling station lol! Can't help you at all there. Also, I only play 2NL for fun or when I need to get some "feel good" going after a bad session at higher stakes. No worries here

Re limping: what I talk about in the earlier post refers to open limping which I still wouldnt advise. Limping behind I will gladly do in the right situation at any level. The likelyhood that I limp behind would be a factor of several criteria: a speculative hand, in postion and multiple players in the pot. I would treate this fairly simiar to calling behind from pos.
 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 09:38 AM
(#17)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
There's usually more players/ flop in limit and many players are calling stations. As you can see from my stats I do raise and usually in position but hands like suited connectors and low pocket pairs work well in a multi way pot. Villains who never limp are missing out on value - if they fold they are missing spots while if they raise they are building pots for stronger hands.

I never or rarely limp from early position unless I know there's a maniac that will build a pot for me. I agree with your evaluation it's all about position.


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Tue Nov 26, 2013, 07:55 AM
(#18)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Hey MrFlopes,

I agree with Arty that your 3bet / Cbet stats need some work / tweaking, especially if you plan to move up as you will face more aggression at the higher stakes. I consider myself a fairly tight player [... some may consider me a NIT] and when I compared my stats @ 2NL my overall 3bet stats were 3.79%, but in the blinds Vs Steal this increased to 4.79% [SB] & 5.51% [BB]. My BB/100 @ 2NL is 16.8.

That said... I agree with Greg [Roland GTX] you are doing a lot right & these are only tweaks that will help to improve your profit, BB/100 in the long run.

GL @ the tables.

Tony
 
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Tue Nov 26, 2013, 04:20 PM
(#19)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFlopes View Post
Fadyen, that would be great. And on that note, let me ask Arty and Roland: if that's not too much trouble, could you guys post some of your stats of 2NL? Really like to take a peek at that.
Here are my Stars 2NL 6-max stats: (click for bigger)


[x] Nittier than Roland, especially UTG.
[x] Profitable in the small blind.
[x] Stupidly small sample size.


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Wed Dec 04, 2013, 11:20 AM
(#20)
MrFlopes's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 152
Hey, guys. Thanks a lot for posting your stats. I've been trying to improve my game by following your advice and making some tweets. I've been focusing on light 3-betting and blind defence to improve the win rate. I've had great results, altought not too sure if the sample size is enough to read anything. Still, the improvement started right after reading your posts. So, here are the stats from that day till today:





More 3-bet, less fold to steal, a little bit more total AF and a bit more vpip. And the graph they produce:



For a nice 11.67 BB/100. Weeee Still, not that big of a sample Some is just good run, but other i believe was achieved by following your good advices. A lot of room to improve. So thank you, guys. And be seeing you on some shots at 5NL

Last edited by MrFlopes; Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 11:43 AM..
 

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