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Cash Game Frustrations

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Cash Game Frustrations - Sun Nov 24, 2013, 03:20 AM
(#1)
OrdinaryGuy1's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 22
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I have been playing cash games on and off for a few years now and have never been able to reach the point where I am a consistant winner. However I am seeing improvements. What I find most frustrating is how my results seem to swing from encouraging to really making me feel dispair. I am wondering if I spend too much time when losing re buying and trying to break even and not enough time when winning to take as much profit as possible. So in other words my winning sessions are too short and my losing ones too long. I have attached my most recent results from 5/10 cent and as you can see i was getting good results and starting to build up a mini bankroll and now it has all gone tits up. Any constructive / helpful advice welcome. Put downs and spleen venting -see a shrink. Thanks
Actually cant upload results file it is too big.
 
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Sun Nov 24, 2013, 03:32 AM
(#2)
OrdinaryGuy1's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 22
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Whils I cannot upload the file I can give a brief summary:
After the first 4 sessions and 784 hands I was down $12
After 12 sessions and 3167 hands I was down $20
After 31 sessions and 5332 hands I was up $74
and where i am now After 52 sessions and 8544 hands I am down $31 and suicidal

Why are my results so up and down like a tarts knickers??
 
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Sun Nov 24, 2013, 06:25 AM
(#3)
TweedleBeetl's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,146
Several things can be important here.

Look at your good sessions and contrast them with your bad ones. Do you feel you played better? were you in a better mood? less tired? did the good sessions occur at different times of day or weekdays than the bad ones?
where you playing the same number of tables, etc...

You say the bad sessions where longer. If you only look at the first X hands of each session does the picture change? this would indicate you should keep sessions short because you loose focus after some time. take more breaks.

This could be a case of bad tilt control. Sometimes bad beats can disturb a players mental balance in a way that makes him play less well. If that happens it is imperative to watch out for this and take steps to fix that, either with conscious effort or just by a break.

8500 hands are not enough to be sure of anything, specially if your true winrate is low. When winrate is low the effect of variance will be greater and you need more hands to have a valid sample.
 
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Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:51 PM
(#4)
OrdinaryGuy1's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 22
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Hi

Thanks so much for that reply Tweedle. Very very useful and I suspect right on the mark. After I had posted my woes I sat and thought about it for a bit and decided that yes I am a good/capable player but I am STILL trying to rush things. I want results yesterday and that just doesn't work does it. Your reply is very helpful as it sort of confirms what I had started to suspect too that when I play my A game it is good but my problem is that I often let my game slip to C or worse

Thanks again

Mike
 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 03:23 AM
(#5)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
It's easy to get emotionally attached to your results, where you're both on a losing or winning streak.

It is important to fully understand the nature of variance. The sample size of hands you have posted is way too small to be a good indicator of anything.

Just continue to grind and hopefully you'll have more fruitful winning sessions than losing ones


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 05:03 AM
(#6)
MrFlopes's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 152
OrdinaryGuy1, play 100k hands and then feel free to feel sorry about yourself. 8k doesn't mean anything. If you know you're a competent player keep that in mind and play more. Playing more when you're losing is a common mistake, but a good mistake, i guess. You have to force yourself to play when your losing and try to deal with thoses swings. The day will come when your loosing and you can play with a clear head anyways.
 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 01:23 PM
(#7)
OrdinaryGuy1's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 22
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More good advice thanks guys

What do you think about the idea (not mine i have read it before somewhere) of setting yourself fixed session times for example 1 hour / 3 hours / 5 hours whatever and making your sole focus to play the best poker you can ignoring the results as much as possible and then quitting when the time is up. This has been suggested as a way to eliminate tilt etc. opinions on this one?
 
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Mon Nov 25, 2013, 01:36 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,862
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This is absolutely a good idea. One thing that we do NOT want to be is results oriented, so if setting a time limit will help to avoid this.. GO FOR IT!

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Nov 26, 2013, 05:06 AM
(#9)
Ninok33's Avatar
Since: Oct 2013
Posts: 2
same story, and also I have bad internet connection
 
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Tue Nov 26, 2013, 05:29 AM
(#10)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrdinaryGuy1 View Post
More good advice thanks guys

What do you think about the idea (not mine i have read it before somewhere) of setting yourself fixed session times for example 1 hour / 3 hours / 5 hours whatever and making your sole focus to play the best poker you can ignoring the results as much as possible and then quitting when the time is up. This has been suggested as a way to eliminate tilt etc. opinions on this one?
I don't think it is a bad idea at all to set an upper time limit on sessions but don't feel that you have to stick to it.

For example, I've often started up a session with the intention of playing for an hour or so, but where I have been fortunate enough to get a BI or two ahead early in the session then I am more than content just to stop after 10-15 minutes and relax a bit.

I generally make up for that with longer sessions when I am break even or behind, which isn't necessarily advisable for everyone, but I have become quite used to longer sessions in these circumstances challenging myself to get ahead. I've only started doing this since I have improved my emotional game though and if there are tilt problems it shouldn't be done. I've not abolished entirely from my game but I am in much better control than I used to be.
 
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Tue Nov 26, 2013, 07:10 AM
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Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrdinaryGuy1 View Post
More good advice thanks guys

What do you think about the idea (not mine i have read it before somewhere) of setting yourself fixed session times for example 1 hour / 3 hours / 5 hours whatever and making your sole focus to play the best poker you can ignoring the results as much as possible and then quitting when the time is up. This has been suggested as a way to eliminate tilt etc. opinions on this one?
Hey Mike,

I agree with the others... sample size is too small to beat yourself up over & at the end of the day its only a 10BI swing, which is nothing! It is sometimes difficult to detach yourself from your results 'good or bad'. The great thing about cash games [unlike MTTs etc]... You are in control of your own schedule / sessions & if you feel like you're not playing well or 'on tilt' close your session & take a break... or set a time limit [as above] & see if that helps. Most importantly, review your sessions more closely & see if you can identify leaks in your game [We've all got them].

Also, when things are not going well at my regular stakes, I often play the odd session at the lower stakes for a confidence / BR boost as I genuinely believe I have an advantage over most 2NL / 5NL players.

GL @ the tables

Tony

Last edited by Prodigy237; Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:21 AM.. Reason: Added
 
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Wed Nov 27, 2013, 03:12 AM
(#12)
OrdinaryGuy1's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 22
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Thanks everyone for the further replies. It is very helpful to be able to bounce ideas off people. It is also a refreshing change to encounter nice people posting and replying unlike on some of the poker forums I have tried where some people just seem to get off on being nasty
 
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Fri Nov 29, 2013, 01:42 AM
(#13)
OrdinaryGuy1's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 22
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Hi Prodigy 237 something you have said that I would like to pick up and explore further is when you say that a 10 buy-in swing is not that bad.
My long term goal is to be able to play cash for a second income and maybe even a first income. When I have a swing down like this I am saying to myself. You couldnt play this for a living because with a swing down like that how would you be ever making any money. What would be really helpful would be to understand how those playing for income or a living manage to do that and suffer these downswings too.
I am waffling as usual I suppose what I am trying to say is, if I was a pro playing 8 hours a day 5 days a week would I eventually recover that 10 buy-in loss and return to even, and then start building up profit etc from which i would take my income. This is all theoretical as I am nowhere near ready for that lark but i need to understand it. I suppose I have it in my head that successful cash game players dont go that far down but just dip a bit and then carry on increasing their winnins but may be it doesnt work that way??? As they say at University (I haven't been) discuss!!!!
 
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Fri Nov 29, 2013, 01:48 AM
(#14)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrdinaryGuy1 View Post
Hi Prodigy 237 something you have said that I would like to pick up and explore further is when you say that a 10 buy-in swing is not that bad.
My long term goal is to be able to play cash for a second income and maybe even a first income. When I have a swing down like this I am saying to myself. You couldnt play this for a living because with a swing down like that how would you be ever making any money. What would be really helpful would be to understand how those playing for income or a living manage to do that and suffer these downswings too.
I am waffling as usual I suppose what I am trying to say is, if I was a pro playing 8 hours a day 5 days a week would I eventually recover that 10 buy-in loss and return to even, and then start building up profit etc from which i would take my income. This is all theoretical as I am nowhere near ready for that lark but i need to understand it. I suppose I have it in my head that successful cash game players dont go that far down but just dip a bit and then carry on increasing their winnins but may be it doesnt work that way??? As they say at University (I haven't been) discuss!!!!
Professionals are supposed to keep a minimum of six months living expenses aside from their bankroll.

This should allow them to play freely knowing it isn't their rent money etc. that they are playing with.
 
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Sat Nov 30, 2013, 11:26 PM
(#15)
OrdinaryGuy1's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 22
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I get that but what I am more interested in is whether a successful professional would have downswings like this and still recover and go on to be in profit. I cannot imagine you could have them too often or all you would do all month would be go up and down but not actually make any money.
 
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Sun Dec 01, 2013, 05:33 AM
(#16)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I'll quote what I posted in a response on another thread about my 10NL 6Max adventures.

Over a 7K hand spell, I recently had a 17 buy-in (yes, that's $170) downswing but fortunately I've also had a 12K hand spell with a 13 buy in upswing.

Fortunately my baseline is usually profitable but variance is a bitch!
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 06:21 AM
(#17)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Hey Mike,

I suffered from a 14 'buy in' downswing during November, but still managed to finish with $118 profit [circa. 25,000 hands]. If you speak to most players [pros included] this is normal even for profitable players, because variance affects everyone... & explains why good BRM is essential!!!

The trick is to keep the faith, stick to your game plan & try to avoid tilting [as much as possible] & you will make money in the long run.

See encl. link by Felix 'xflixx' Schneiders, Pokerstars On-line Pro

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/blo...y-inner-demons

GL @ the tables.

Tony

Last edited by Prodigy237; Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 06:37 AM.. Reason: Added
 
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Tue Dec 03, 2013, 05:12 AM
(#18)
OrdinaryGuy1's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 22
SilverStar
Thanks for those replies. I think I am beginnig to get it.

Have I got this right as a hypothetical example:

You are playing full ring NL 5/10 cent

You have a bankroll of $300

You start off and you build up a profit of $170 after 10,000 hands

Then it starts going wrong for whatever reason but hopefully just variance and not tilt / bad play and during the next 10,000 hands you go from +$170 to down $85.

At this point (if in fact you were a successfuly profitable player) is it reasonable to expect that at some point in the future and after another batch of hands you will recover those losses and eventually achieve a position whereby you are more than $170 up. Even though this may take some considerable time.

What I am trying to get a grasp of here is how it works in reality for pro players who are winners over time!

Mike
 
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Tue Dec 03, 2013, 05:29 AM
(#19)
OrdinaryGuy1's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 22
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Hi Prodigy. Just looked at the link you gave me too and that was helpful to see a pro having down swings all be it not as wild as mine tend to be. But then again he /she is a pro and I am most definitely NOT - Yet!!! :-)

In reading that I came across something else I am never sure of. When he/she talks about selecting the bet games, how do you do this (I must admit I dont do this and would probably get better results if I targeted tables with players a lot worse than me) if you dont have any notes on the other players.
What stats shoudl I be looking for in the lobby to suggest that at least some of the players at a given table are a bit rubbish :-) and therefore a good one to sit at?

Mike
 
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Tue Dec 03, 2013, 05:38 PM
(#20)
Prodigy237's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 336
BronzeStar
Hi Mike,

Some useful info on table selection... http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...selecting-tips

Hope this helps.

Tony
 

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